2017 GP NHK Ladies FS | Page 59 | Golden Skate

2017 GP NHK Ladies FS

MalAssada

Medalist
Joined
Jun 28, 2014
The position looks better when a skater is flexible. Rules don't award this except for GOE, so as long as you hit level 4 you are having minimal or no loss. I think it should matter - spins aren't worth enough to make flexibility a requirement to win, and a spin with better positions achieved by flexibility should be rewarded more.

Not that flexibility always makes make something nice: Lipnitskaya was very flexible, but her free leg on the layback spin wasn't raised nearly as much as she could. Maybe a question os balance/need for quicker rotation/etc.
 

Tolstoj

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Biggest issue with Kostner is that, her programs are absolutely boring. Her SP is actually better than her LP. I just struggle to find what should I remember from the FS and mostly it’s just blah? For once, Medvedeva’s FS is quite memorable despite her mimicking.

I really like her long program, but one thing that really bothers me is that the transitions are so outdated, and that's probably why sometimes she loses to Medvedeva on the components.

If you compare the two FS, Caro's program looks more like an exhibition and some of the jumps are a little telegraphed.

Also Carolina is miming in the SP too (but i'm totally fine with that)
 

Tolstoj

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
+3 GOE for her layback is ridiculous. If you want to see a layback/Biellman that deserves a +3, look at Mirai or Karen (and perhaps Yulia).

Karen's layback: https://youtu.be/NixhPhyYW4w?t=3m15s

Medvedeva's catch foot: https://youtu.be/p34SMcbhaVk?t=43s

Notice how Med's spinning leg is bent during her catch foot spin. She doesn't hold the layback position at all, whereas Karen has a much greater arch on her layback and holds it for a long time. It is a lot like Sasha Cohen's.

Yes, Med's spin does increase in speed when she pulls it up but her spinning leg position is questionable and the only arguably "difficult" position is the catchfoot. Meanwhile Karen's spin has 2 exquisite position (both layback + Biellmann).

Karen's layback is beautiful except is travelling waay too much at the point that sometimes should get negative GOEs on that.

Like this one at Skate Canada this season, look at her positioning: she starts the spin between the "A" and the "U" on the ice and she finishes almost in front of the judges
https://youtu.be/RacvCyCpwdM?t=181

In the FS is even worse: she starts at the first T of "international" and she ends between "C and "A" of "canada"
https://youtu.be/XyQqwhUbe5E?t=259
 
Joined
Mar 16, 2012
Re: miming.
I love the art of mime. Cirque du Soleil, vignettes outside museums, love it all.
The point is miming to execute well or miming because living it.
One is still just shallow acting, maybe even very precisely, yet one is using it to communicate a story of emotion they really feel.
Like all things it comes down to integrity and quality.
 

dailytg20

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 18, 2015
Rewatching Carolina's FS more closely, I think the one score that seems reputation-based here is her skating skills.

She's at a 9+ level at the beginning of her program, gliding and glorious. Then as soon as she hits that stand-and-pose moment we enter a pattern of skate/jump/skate/jump/skate/jump--a lot of which happens on two feet. She of course has to compensate for the fall by performing a bunch of crossovers into her next jump, but she never quite gets back to her level of effortless skating at the beginning. Even her final step sequence seems to have more two-step gliding than deep one-foot turns and Patrick Chan-ish edge changes, at least when compared to what I've seen her do in the past.

The thing with Carolina is that outside of what is happening with her feet she carries herself so well that sometimes her skating seems more skillful than it is if you are just watching her feet. She's so good at rising and falling, holding her posture solid, projecting with her arms without flapping and drooping them, that you don't realize that she is doing a lot of skating around on two feet, taking rather shallow curves with declining speed. Looking at this FS again, I feel like she got higher SS scores than she deserved because, in the words of Dick Button, she sort of bamboozled us with her hands.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Medvedeva never deserves +3 on any of her spins. She does not hit 6 of the 8 bullet points you quoted and you don't seem to understand the rules because there's an entire set of -GOE criteria that need to be balanced against the positive criteria. Even beyond all of that, these bullet points are guidelines. Speed/acceleration and good positions may only be 1 bullet point each, but they matter more than that. Many judges want to see something truly exceptional in that regard to award a +3 (and the rules need to be rewritten to specifically state that a +3 should only be rewarded for elements that are among the best ever).

At best Medvedeva's spins hit bullet points 2, 5, 7, and 8. Frequently I would not give her bullet point 8 (element matched to music structure) and bullet point 5 is also questionable at times, as she has some quite lackluster positions in her combination spin. Bullet point 1 (speed) might sometimes be applicable on her layback spin, but then she loses bullet point 2 (ability to center a spin quickly) whenever she tries to go into the layback with more speed.

Her spins are often "1.5" GOE quality, but judges aren't currently able to split the difference like that on each individual element. Most of the time I would give +1 to her combo spin, +2 to her layback, and then on her flying camel it's more often +1, but occasionally I can see +2 justified.

Could you please post a full set of rules for the spins, including negative and positive GOE, and what bullet points are more important and so on?
I failed to find it, and it would be a very useful reference.
 

jenm

The Last One Degree
Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
+3 GOE for her layback is ridiculous. If you want to see a layback/Biellman that deserves a +3, look at Mirai or Karen (and perhaps Yulia).

Karen's layback: https://youtu.be/NixhPhyYW4w?t=3m15s

Medvedeva's catch foot: https://youtu.be/p34SMcbhaVk?t=43s

Notice how Med's spinning leg is bent during her catch foot spin. She doesn't hold the layback position at all, whereas Karen has a much greater arch on her layback and holds it for a long time. It is a lot like Sasha Cohen's.

Yes, Med's spin does increase in speed when she pulls it up but her spinning leg position is questionable and the only arguably "difficult" position is the catchfoot. Meanwhile Karen's spin has 2 exquisite position (both layback + Biellmann).

adding Satoko's as an example of a beautiful +3 GoE layback :) https://youtu.be/sIvDVIv67PQ?t=251
 

Viiktoruu

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 10, 2017
+3 GOE for her layback is ridiculous. If you want to see a layback/Biellman that deserves a +3, look at Mirai or Karen (and perhaps Yulia).

Karen's layback: https://youtu.be/NixhPhyYW4w?t=3m15s

Medvedeva's catch foot: https://youtu.be/p34SMcbhaVk?t=43s

Notice how Med's spinning leg is bent during her catch foot spin. She doesn't hold the layback position at all, whereas Karen has a much greater arch on her layback and holds it for a long time. It is a lot like Sasha Cohen's.

Yes, Med's spin does increase in speed when she pulls it up but her spinning leg position is questionable and the only arguably "difficult" position is the catchfoot. Meanwhile Karen's spin has 2 exquisite position (both layback + Biellmann).

Well, look, I was being a bit ironic with the comment you quoted as I was imitating a comment in which a user stated their own opinion as if that was somehow a scientific fact :biggrin:

As for your arguments, I agree and Karen's spin from that video is outstanding and a clear +3. However, comparison between skaters is not how the scores are done. If Evgenia completes the criteria for 6 bullets and did no mistakes to have her GOE lowered, then she deserves a +3 GOE, that's it. Judging doesn't work by comparing a skater to another skater's element on a different competition. That's also why I think the term world record makes no sense (and obviously why ISU never uses it) and am sorry Zhenya gained so many haters at the moment she "broke" Yuna's records, as they were set at a time when the programs had different elements and GOE scores were different (even though they were higher).

As for Evgenia's spin that you posted, I think bullets 1, 2, 3, 7 and 8 could apply, so a GOE between +2 and +3 would be appropriate. As for the difficult positions you argue - they don't count into the GOE of the spin, but its level of difficulty, right? Those are a different set of rules. Do you think it wasn't level 4?
 

Viiktoruu

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 10, 2017
Could you please post a full set of rules for the spins, including negative and positive GOE, and what bullet points are more important and so on?
I failed to find it, and it would be a very useful reference.

Here they are: http://www.isu.org/docman-documents-links/isu-files/documents-communications/isu-communications/14352-isu-communication-2089/file

Note that the negative GOE from the tables on pages 14 and 15 is not automatically the overall GOE for the element (unless it's underlined there), but that is the number of GOE points to be deducted when the positive GOE bullets are counted. So for example if a skater performs a jump that would gain GOE +2 but had a wrong edge takeoff - its GOE should be -1 or 0, and not -3 or -2.
 

Ares

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Country
Poland
Here they are: http://www.isu.org/docman-documents...munications/14352-isu-communication-2089/file

Note that the negative GOE from the tables on pages 14 and 15 is not automatically the overall GOE for the element (unless it's underlined there), but that is the number of GOE points to be deducted when the positive GOE bullets are counted. So for example if a skater performs a jump that would gain GOE +2 but had a wrong edge takeoff - its GOE should be -1 or 0, and not -3 or -2.

Do you think that judges really look for that edge when assessing GOE or just go with whatever tech call was at the end?
 

David21

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
So yes, Mao is often underscored in PCS. In TES, she can do all the triples, but her URs and GOE will hold her back.


I've never seen Mao do a clean lutz and she often had problems with the salchow as well. Her underrotation was often atrocious.
As for her PCS, I mostly thought she was scored correctly or sometimes even too highly scored except for the 2014 Olympics where she got unlucky with the skate order.
 

ask

Match Penalty
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
True. But my point was that with that technical content, Kostner would score much much higher at NHK. She got 62 TES with easier elements and just 4 triples landed. With her big GOEs, a 8 triples program would give her cosmic TES. Not sure that she would get calls, she doesn't have the reputation to UR her jumps after all.

At the Sochi Olympics, Kostner skated a clean 7 triples LP and still got much lower TES than Mao who got 2 URs call and an edge call on the lutz. Kostner's maximum TES is going to be around 71 or 72. Her PCS when clean with 7 triples should be as close to 80 as possible.
She doesn't have the reputation to UR her jumps because she doesn't UR her jumps.
 

Ballade88

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 19, 2017
This!! I always thought Mao was lowballed even before Sochi and as a result I stopped following figure skating for a while. I am not saying Caro is not good. But in my opinion she is being held up ridiculously at the moment and it is hurting credibility of the sport, once again. Mao didn't get this kind of points and she actually had triple axel AND triple lutz (although wrong edge..). Caro has neither. I would say both have good skating skills and artistry. Mao's spins were way better and she also had better transitions and step sequences.

THIS! I don't see the point in comparing the artistry because they have different styles and personalities. I always believed that in terms of aesthetics (lines, positions, posture, extension, etc.) Mao was above everyone else in her generation. These qualities should be factored into the scoring somehow. Skaters do need to put in a lot of work to excel in these areas. I also find it puzzling that some posters justified her lower PCS because of her technical issues with jumps, while at the same time defending high PCS of skaters like Caro stating that PCS should not be affected by falls or pops. They are all technical issues so they all should not affect PCS, especially since URs and edge are already reflected in TES and sometimes add up to more deductions than a fall or pop that disrupt the flow of the program more obviously.

Carolina is a great skater but she had some very subpar performances where her PCS stayed the same or didn't drop that much. I can think of two situations where she won a medal based mostly on the second mark (2008 and 2014 worlds). I can only recall Chan having that kind of cushion in PCS, although I agree with others who say he did at least try to land difficult jumps in the program. In general, I don't like how PCS is scored and it is making me lose interest in watching competitive figure skating. A skater shouldn't get high PCS just because they land jumps or because they are known as the most "artistic" by the judges. While I admire Caro for continuing to remain competitive, I find her programs nowhere near her Sochi programs or her short in 2013, neither technically nor artistically. I don't think they should get scores as high or higher than what she got for those programs. I am aware that there is inflation, which is another issue that needs to be fixed imo.
 

gotoschool

Medalist
Joined
Mar 5, 2014
I've never seen Mao do a clean lutz and she often had problems with the salchow as well. Her underrotation was often atrocious.
As for her PCS, I mostly thought she was scored correctly or sometimes even too highly scored except for the 2014 Olympics where she got unlucky with the skate order.

The judges did notice Satoka's URs before. At Skate America, two of her jumps in the Free Skate were called as underrotated. And it's not that the judges always notice Mao's underrotations. In fact, they very often miss them!

[/QUOTE] At the Sochi Olympics, Kostner skated a clean 7 triples LP and still got much lower TES than Mao who got 2 URs call and an edge call on the lutz. Kostner's maximum TES is going to be around 71 or 72. Her PCS when clean with 7 triples should be as close to 80 as possible.
She doesn't have the reputation to UR her jumps because she doesn't UR her jumps.
Of course, Caro should always have a 1 point margin over Mao in SS.
She got the wrong end of the stick pre 2010 and right end post 2010. Mao, the reverse.
She (Mao) is noticeably slower than Kostner. Yes, her PCS is on the lower side. Should have been 72-73, but that only adds 4 points to her total, which will give her 138.43. This is higher than Kostner´s score at NHK. You can look at her TES deficiency in the score sheet.

So yes, Mao is often underscored in PCS. In TES, she can do all the triples, but her URs and GOE will hold her back.

My personal take is if Mao does not have UR problem, she should win every single competition she is in, regardless of who is competing and who is clean. Yes, even above Yuna, Caro, Med.

Unfavored reputations are often established on false information that reinforces discrimination and ignores proper examination. Even though Mao did made mistakes, what better way to ensure that it would be more difficult for Mao to win than by holding her to a lot higher standard compared to other top competitors which would also place extra psychological pressure on her during her performances and when she was injured and ill in her last two seasons help drive her into retirement.

I think one of the consequences of underscoring which Mao suffered from, which is a very widespread view as is indicated by a huge number of comments on so many of her videos, is that some take things to the next extreme by saying she was not punished enough in scoring probably because she is seen as a threat while not being a chosen favorite of the system, both because of the many championships she won despite underscoring, and also by the fact that so many of her most beloved performances were not sanctioned by the system with "winning numbers": like her 2010 Worlds LP, 2014 Sochi LP or her 2016 Madame Butterfly LP. In addition, Mao has not been given credit for that which is obvious like superior rink coverage in the Sochi LP which indicates superior speed and is clearly shown in the heat map posted below. Mao's apparently effortless speed is based on a lack of resistance like a guitar player whose hands swiftly and smoothly glide across the neck with seeming ease. it is the same kind of swift and easy fluidity as if she is gliding or flying that makes her Madame Butterfly LP so deeply compelling.

Heat map of Sochi LP rink coverage:

Mao Asada with the most
https://ibb.co/ctSu0w
https://ibb.co/ctSu0w
https://ibb.co/kFtbfw

Adelina Sotnikova
https://ibb.co/jvSK0w

Carolina Kostner:
https://ibb.co/ejPtSb

Yuna Kim's rink coverage:
https://ibb.co/noFNLw




And this is not just a one off but indicative of the kind of great expansive rink coverage that Mao consistently had indicating excellent speed with intricate transitions, erect posture and minimal extraneous pumping to accelerate. The propulsion mainly came from the sharp edge of the blades which is more obvious in the buttery smooth and sharp intricacy of her dazzling step sequences where she makes rapid turns with sinuous fluidity or in the wide sweeping arcs in her spiral sequences while maintaining prima ballerina positions with exemplary flexibility and elegant expression. The reason Mao is such a great dancer on the ice and the reason why so many I show her performances comment on this is because of her superlative skating skills. This combined with her compelling artistry, deep emotional resonance and complex and expressive choreography should translate to me and many others in the highest PCS, a view which I have noticed is held more widely among those not initiated into the system of scoring that greatly shortchanged her many exceptional qualities. There were numerous other instances of being unchosen, such as the removal of her most watched Sochi LP videos (the most viewed by the IOC) when others were not taken down, or by her own federation forcing her to train in a sandy rink in Armenia which caused major readjustment to blades and disrupted preparation for the Sochi Olympics among quite a few others.

This deflation and inversion of merit for Mao are applied to urs just as they are to PCS and GOE which is "helped" by overly harsh and / or bogus urs especially when compared to the standards to a number of other top skaters and this has been the case throughout her career and the calls have been especially harsh in major championships like the Grand Prix Finals, Worlds and Olympics. There are quite a few skaters who receive no ur calls calls and have high GOE on triple jumps that are consistently less or no more rotated than those that Mao always received urs on, even though Mao has excellent flow with no extra pumping to gain speed in the combos, erect posture on entrance and landing and a more erect symmetrical air rotation than many of these skaters don't have. Yet, according to those promoting greater scoring inversion, Mao was not punished harshly enough. And even though Mao has landed obviously clean triple lutzes, there are assertions that she has never landed a clean triple lutz while other skaters have gotten away with edge calls in almost every competition. In her Sochi LP, Mao had 2 1/4 rotations or more in the air on the backend of her 3F / 3L and 2A / 3Toe at Sochi yet she received ur calls while those in the final group received free passes on jumps with no more and even less rotation and had edge calls ignored. In Worlds 2014, there was the ludicrous contradiction of Mao getting ur calls on her two jumps with the highest GOE from the the non Asian judges: with her her 3F / 3L initially receiving a high +1.2 GOE and her triple axel and even higher +1.6 GOE before the bogus urs which just happened to be on her most valuable elements. Then, Shin Amano publicly said he would not have called Mao's ur in the Grand Prix Final SP 2013, which suggests he was forced to make the call against his very harsh standards and makes one wonder if there were other times he thought the same and did not say it, since it must have been very difficult to admit in the first place.
 
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