PCS/Reputation Judging | Golden Skate

PCS/Reputation Judging

UpNorth

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 13, 2017
I'm a long time figure skating fan. I feel like I understand the system well. But after seeing SC and esp the NHK Trophy I'm left scratching my head.
I've always felt that Kostner is overscored in PCS, and the same for the Canadian ladies recently.
My question: Is there any way to hold judges accountable? It is seeming more and more likely that we already know who the judges will prop up for the Olympics. So say Kostner falls/pops several jumps, while one of the Japanese/SK/US girls has a great program. It seems like that wouldn't matter. Kostner would receive such a ridiculously high PCS that she is untouchable, even with errors.
This is making me feel less and less excited about the Olympics. And I don't need to wonder what it would do for the future of the sport. It will just tick everyone off.
Curious for your thoughts, as I know many of you are much more vested in the sport than I am.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Thanks for joining us, UpNorth, and welcome to the forum. Post often, post long! :rock:

If you check out some of the other threads (for instance the Ladies' LP thread in the NHK folder) you will find lengthy and heated discussions about this very topic. My own feeling is, figure skating is a judged sport. That's all that I can say about that.

I am still excited about the Olympics. Will Yuzuru Hanyu make a complete recovery from his injury, or will it come down to Shoma Uno versus Nathan Chen. Will Virtue and Moir chug into Pyeongchung with a full head of steam, or is it Papadakis and Cizeron's turn to shine. Will Mirai make the USA team? Will Max Aaron?
 

UpNorth

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 13, 2017
Thank you!! I'm a long time lurker but I finally decided to make an account. I def read enough of the event page to know I'm not the only one to feel this way. Just wondering if anything can be done about it....
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
My feelings on this are simple.
PCs should be abolished. Its a sport.

I get that it's a sport, but I think it'd be pretty boring without any choreography, music, or anything between the elements. I would rather see a separate element competition than see everything else done away with entirely.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
My feelings on this are simple.
PCs should be abolished. Its a sport.

Do you think that Skating Skills are irrelevant to this sport? Transitions? Is the concept of "the program as a whole" (placement of elements, utilizing the complete ice surface, speed across the ice) inappropriate for a sport?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Thank you!! I'm a long time lurker but I finally decided to make an account. I def read enough of the event page to know I'm not the only one to feel this way. Just wondering if anything can be done about it....

According to reports, the ISU is considering the possibility of making some fairly radical changes next year. One thing being discussed is to have a "technical program" and a separate "artistic program," each with it's own prizes.

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?65457-Radical-change-could-be-on-the-way
 

GGFan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 9, 2013
I get that it's a sport, but I think it'd be pretty boring without any choreography, music, or anything between the elements. I would rather see a separate element competition than see everything else done away with entirely.

I'll take 100 judging scandals but I want the whole package because the programs last forever. Seeing Satoko perform even with halfway there jumps was amazing! I want those non-jumping beans to stick around.

ETA: The stuff that folks like Kostner and Satoko do is so easily dismissed. "I know that she has great lines and hands but . . . " Actually, I don't agree. What they do should get it's proper due just like the folks who get credit for their triple triple with 100 transitions in between do. Give them their hit on the technical side.
 

Miss Ice

Let the sky fall~
Medalist
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
I'll take 100 judging scandals but I want the whole package because the programs last forever. Seeing Satoko perform even with halfway there jumps was amazing! I want those non-jumping beans to stick around.

ETA: The stuff that folks like Kostner and Satoko do is so easily dismissed. "I know that she has great lines and hands but . . . " Actually, I don't agree. What they do should get it's proper due just like the folks who get credit for their triple triple with 100 transitions in between do. Give them their hit on the technical sie.

Agreed. Also, good point about memorable programs. It is probably the only sport where entire programs actually have character, story, and totally unforgettable presentation. Maybe the closest other sport that comes to this is rhythmic gymnastics, but I think it still doesn't emphasize the details of musicality and interpretation to the same degree...
 

JustMe

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
I believe that Carolina's speed, confidence, and overall performance quality on the ice has been deficient since her comeback, until this grand prix season. Her performances at Rostelecom & NHK should be evidence enough of why she and her programs have the potential to earn the highest scores out of all programs this season. When someone says they don't understand Carolina's pcs scores, they should just admit they don't understand PCS scores all together. Other times, some skating fans choose not to understand them for her and/or certain skaters because the skaters they prefer didn't score/place as high as they were hoping for. And then there's the intermittent figure skating fan that hasn't really paid attention to the sport since the 6.0 system and thinks skating is or should be all about the jumps, because back in their day Plushenko, Yagudin and Stojko were king. I would have an easier time accepting someone complaining about certain GOEs of individual elements than of Carolina's PCS, but that's just me.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Excellent post. TBH I feel the same way...rep scoring is no better under COP than it was under 6.0. Used to be inflated presentation scores, now it’s inflated PCS. What’s the fun if everything is pre-determined and a skater can afford multiple falls and still medal??? Boring! Not to mention it makes a mockery of the system and the ‘sport’.

Unfortunately I have no good answers, except personally I’ve turned more of my attention to domestic (US) competitions and who will make the US team - and then whatever happens at Olys or Worlds, happens. :shrug: Although I HAVE thought about it and I’m not sure any of this is practical:

- getting rid of nationality for judges and instead, paying them and training them, much like referees in major team sports.

- have judges justify their marks ON THE RECORD with the protocols after the event.

- place limits on length of time or amount of events one can judge per season to reduce “familiarity” bias (or refinement of such a system if already in place)

- have multiple tech callers work an event and have the majority call stand so the skaters aren’t at the mercy of an overly harsh (or lax) individual caller and have to deal with this uncertainty from competition to competition.

While getting rid of PCS sounds great, we know that they’ll compensate by playing games with the tech scores. Not that they don’t already do that - crazy GOEs for a jump sound familiar?
 

Miss Ice

Let the sky fall~
Medalist
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
Excellent post. TBH I feel the same way...rep scoring is no better under COP than it was under 6.0. Used to be inflated presentation scores, now it’s inflated PCS. What’s the fun if everything is pre-determined and a skater can afford multiple falls and still medal??? Boring! Not to mention it makes a mockery of the system and the ‘sport’.

Unfortunately I have no good answers, except personally I’ve turned more of my attention to domestic (US) competitions and who will make the US team - and then whatever happens at Olys or Worlds, happens. :shrug: Although I HAVE thought about it and I’m not sure any of this is practical:

- getting rid of nationality for judges and instead, paying them and training them, much like referees in major team sports.

- have judges justify their marks ON THE RECORD with the protocols after the event.

- place limits on length of time or amount of events one can judge per season to reduce “familiarity” bias (or refinement of such a system if already in place)

- have multiple tech callers work an event and have the majority call stand so the skaters aren’t at the mercy of an overly harsh (or lax) individual caller and have to deal with this uncertainty from competition to competition.

While getting rid of PCS sounds great, we know that they’ll compensate by playing games with the tech scores. Not that they don’t already do that - crazy GOEs for a jump sound familiar?

Crazy GOEs for a jump taken off the wrong edge. :palmf:
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
My feelings on this are simple.
PCs should be abolished. Its a sport.

PCS are sport related marks - speed, acceleration, pace, stamina, fluency, whole body involvement etc etc are crucial part of every PCS category. Maybe only different thing included in it is performance aspect, but defined only as skating to the music rythm and for the audience. I mean, its not like judges judging the art in those categories.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
When we see skaters with easier jumps or more mistakes place ahead of skaters with more successful more difficult jumps, it's hard to know how much of the former skater's high scores were due to reputation and how much were due to stronger basic skating, along with technique/quality on the successful elements and the various criteria of Presentation score under 6.0 or Performance, Composition, and Interpretation components under IJS.

I think the basic skating tends to drive results first and foremost, under either 6.0 or IJS systems, with jump content at best the second most important set of skills.

If I watch on video and disagree with or don't understand the results, my first thought is always that it probably looked different live and up close.

When I watch in person, the differences between average vs. good skating, or good vs. great, are much more obvious.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
But none get criticized as much as Zhenya. Why?

She's at the top of the heap. Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown. :)

By the way, Medvedeva is an example of a skater who burst suddenly on the scene and established a "reputation" right away. This is what a skater should do if she is worried that the old-timers will have an advantage over her because of their long-standing reputations. Look at Zagitova. First season as a senior, and she already has a "reputation" with the judges.

On the other hand, another much-cited skater this year is Kaetlyn Osmond. She struggled and struggled and finally is now enjoying the reputation that her hard struggles have brought.
 
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Miss Ice

Let the sky fall~
Medalist
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
She's at the top of the heap. Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown. :)

Plus, EVERY single lutz is actually a flip. Not just a couple. But literally every single one. I do not know any other skater whose blatant edge mistake has been ignored so many times. Also, her UR on the jumps she fell on in the FS in NHK. They were just not rotated all the way, and the tech panel would have definitely called out any other skater. This is the problem. Why does one skater get special treatment? It just sends the wrong message to everybody. :no:
 

Bcash

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
I believe that Carolina's speed, confidence, and overall performance quality on the ice has been deficient since her comeback, until this grand prix season. Her performances at Rostelecom & NKH should be evidence enough of why she and her programs have the potential to earn the highest scores out of all programs this season. When someone says they don't understand Carolina's pcs scores, they should just admit they don't understand PCS scores all together. Other times, some skating fans choose not to understand them for her and/or certain skaters because the skaters they prefer didn't score/place as high as they were hoping for. And then there's the intermittent figure skating fan that hasn't really paid attention to the sport since the 6.0 system and thinks skating is or should be all about the jumps, because back in their day Plushenko, Yagudin and Stojko were king. I would have an easier time accepting someone complaining about certain GOEs of individual elements than of her PCS, but that's just me.

I think a lot of people are viewing Kostner with a historical eye. Does she measure up against former greats who were widely considered to be above the field in presentation and artistic impression? If not, what makes her deserve special treatment that was denied to many before her?

Same with Med's TES. If, say, Mao Asada was hammered with URs and e! calls during portions of her career, why is Med showered with high GOEs and no calls on her flawed execution?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think a lot of people are viewing Kostner with a historical eye. Does she measure up against former greats who were widely considered to be above the field in presentation and artistic impression? If not, what makes her deserve special treatment that was denied to many before her? ...

That is an interesting point. Maybe there is a nostalgia factor going on here. Even if Carolina is not Michelle Kwan or Staphane Lambiel, still, her grace, carriage, flow and musicality is so much better than what we see nowadays that judges can't help but respond.
 

GGFan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 9, 2013
I think a lot of people are viewing Kostner with a historical eye. Does she measure up against former greats who were widely considered to be above the field in presentation and artistic impression? If not, what makes her deserve special treatment that was denied to many before her?

Same with Med's TES. If, say, Mao Asada was hammered with URs and e! calls during portions of her career, why is Med showered with high GOEs and no calls on her flawed execution?

I think a couple things might be going on with Kostner: 1) She is doing some interpretive things better. I think she did even more dance training while she was away. 2) It took a while for the judges to start awarding 9s consistently and she's around at a time when they are. 3) She stuck around until 30--she's getting her makeup PCS for previous years (like makeup Oscars years later)
 
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