PCS/Reputation Judging

R.D. said:

Excellent post. TBH I feel the same way...rep scoring is no better under COP than it was under 6.0. Used to be inflated presentation scores, now it’s inflated PCS. What’s the fun if everything is pre-determined and a skater can afford multiple falls and still medal??? Boring! Not to mention it makes a mockery of the system and the ‘sport’.

Unfortunately I have no good answers, except personally I’ve turned more of my attention to domestic (US) competitions and who will make the US team - and then whatever happens at Olys or Worlds, happens. Although I HAVE thought about it and I’m not sure any of this is practical:

- getting rid of nationality for judges and instead, paying them and training them, much like referees in major team sports.

- have judges justify their marks ON THE RECORD with the protocols after the event.

- place limits on length of time or amount of events one can judge per season to reduce “familiarity” bias (or refinement of such a system if already in place)

- have multiple tech callers work an event and have the majority call stand so the skaters aren’t at the mercy of an overly harsh (or lax) individual caller and have to deal with this uncertainty from competition to competition.

While getting rid of PCS sounds great, we know that they’ll compensate by playing games with the tech scores. Not that they don’t already do that - crazy GOEs for a jump sound familiar?

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Well, you are clearly pre-determined to always complain about figure skating judging, lol.
And elimination of judges' nationality? Not sure what that means, lol.

My issue with the PCS marks is skaters are being boxed into a point range across all categories.

Mathman said:

Do you think that Skating Skills are irrelevant to this sport? Transitions? Is the concept of "the program as a whole" (placement of elements, utilizing the complete ice surface, speed across the ice) inappropriate for a sport?

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Transitions should be incorporated into TES, and skating skill, i suppose, into GOE.
The way PCs are currently awarded makes so sense even for experienced fans, and it would be better without them.

While judges still do shady stuff with TES, it is still easier to track and account for than PCs.

I´m mostly for some clear and transparent scoring.
For example, i want GOE to not be given as a value, but for the judges to check the bullets they think apply to a certain jump, and so on.

I don't like the idea of two separate competitions tho. It can be so beautiful when everything is done together as a whole package.....

gkelly said:

When we see skaters with easier jumps or more mistakes place ahead of skaters with more successful more difficult jumps, it's hard to know how much of the former skater's high scores were due to reputation and how much were due to stronger basic skating, along with technique/quality on the successful elements and the various criteria of Presentation score under 6.0 or Performance, Composition, and Interpretation components under IJS.

I think the basic skating tends to drive results first and foremost, under either 6.0 or IJS systems, with jump content at best the second most important set of skills.

If I watch on video and disagree with or don't understand the results, my first thought is always that it probably looked different live and up close.

When I watch in person, the differences between average vs. good skating, or good vs. great, are much more obvious.

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That's a good point. The skaters I've seen live are so much more impressive in person than on TV.

So another question....have Mirai's skating skills deteriorated since she was successful early on (I'm thinking her SP at worlds 2010) or has her inconsistency shot her in the foot reputation-judging wise?

Mathman said:

That is an interesting point. Maybe there is a nostalgia factor going on here. Even if Carolina is not Michelle Kwan or Staphane Lambiel, still, her grace, carriage, flow and musicality is so much better than what we see nowadays that judges can't help but respond.

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Carolina definitely does have all that; however, I think Satoko's grace, carriage, flow and musicality surpases everyone skating right now.

Spirals for Miles said:

There's many skaters who have the wrong edge that isn't always called.
But none get criticized as much as Zhenya. Why?

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That's your opinion. And who's over-criticizing? Judges/callers/fans that can clearly identify take-off edges? And ultimately, if this opinion can somehow be proven to be a fact, that no other skater gets criticized for wrong edge take-offs more than Medvedeva, what medal or title has she lost because of this? When has she been "robbed" by the judges inability to ignore her wrong edge take-offs?

Baron Vladimir said:

PCS are sport related mark. I mean, its not like judges judging the art in those categories.

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No, the judges ARE supposed to be judging art within the PCS. Not in skating skills of course, but in the other components.

Mathman said:

Maybe there is a nostalgia factor going on here. Even if Carolina is not Michelle Kwan or Staphane Lambiel, still, her grace, carriage, flow and musicality is so much better than what we see nowadays that judges can't help but respond.

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This is definitely what's happening. People are so desperate for some real unfettered skating that Carolina is being held up as a symbol, even though her skating is not on the same level. She's just the closest to it and is being protected like an endangered species.

Blades of Passion said:

This is definitely what's happening. People are so desperate for some real unfettered skating that Carolina is being held up as a symbol, even though her skating is not on the same level. She's just the closest to it and is being protected like an endangered species.

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I kinda disagree. Even looking at the discussions here, it looks like SOME people are so desperate, while other people are clueless on why it is held up and protected.
Please dont make generalizations of your own opinion to all people

JustMe said:

Well, you are clearly pre-determined to always complain about figure skating judging, lol.
And elimination of judges' nationality? Not sure what that means, lol.

My issue with the PCS marks is skaters are being boxed into a point range across all categories.

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Yes! PCS score in 5 categories as the judges use them now is pointless. Regardless of the reality of transitions and performance and skating skills etc. the scores are pretty much within .5 across the board (when you look at one judge)

It is conceivable that a skater with excellent skating skills has very low performance and interpretation (Polina T @NHK) or a skater with excellent SS P/E Int is weak on transitions (Carolina @ NHK) but judges don't dare score it how it happens.

chloepoco said:

Carolina definitely does have all that; however, I think Satoko's grace, carriage, flow and musicality surpases everyone skating right now.

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Now this is a very interesting argument and I would not mind if Satoko surpassed Carolina in some categories. I think I would have to be there live. I don't know if Satoko's size, etc. works against her. On TV where I can see all of the subtleties I would agree. Satoko is blowing me away this season. Everything has a purpose. I see a couple separate arguments being conflated in this discussion:

1) There's an argument is about relative scoring which I discuss above, and several posters have made it. It implies that some skaters are being robbed relative to Kostner. Who else other than Satoko is being underscored relative to Kostner in the last three PCS categories? I do not see this argument as having that much merit. There might be examples but I would like to see them. By the way scores have been going, what Kostner is getting is not unreasonable.

1A) Some are using argument 1 and comparing Kostner's scoring to skaters who are no longer competing like Mao, but I think that actually relates to scoring inflation. Which I discuss below. That is, if Mao was skating against Kostner at the moment her marks would probably have drifted up as well.

2) The argument I think has the most merit is about absolute PCS scoring and inflation. This line of argument is about the general scoring inflation that has occurred in the last decade. It says that standards should mean something and that 9s and 10s should be rare. By this logic all scoring has gotten out of hand and need to be reexamined. Human beings have a tendency to inflate upward over time, so like gymnastics there may have to be periodic resetting of what a 10 means. It may well be time to reset the PCS scores and make clearer guidelines, but that has little to do with Kostner's scoring in particular.

ETA: 3) There is also a valid argument about all of the PCS categories being scored together as one. Several posters have made it. My opinion is that there are too many PCS categories, while others feel differently, but again this has very little to do with Kostner's scoring in particular.

Blades of Passion said:

No, the judges ARE supposed to be judging art within the PCS. Not in skating skills of course, but in the other components.

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Yeah... in your own FS world...
You can see art of course in it, like you can see art in many other sports or other segments in your everyday life. But actually you cant find the word ART nowhere in the current system. Nor judges job is to judge art. Nor you can judge art like that... Judges are judging perfomance of skating elements and skating, skating to the rythm and skating acceleration according to changes in rythm, pace of the skating according the rythm, awareness of the platform they performed (ice rink) and awareness of the audience who are watching etc etc They are not judging (nor supposed to judge, nor its mathematicaly possible to judge) art (beauty) of performance or art (beauty) of the movements.

Spirals for Miles said:

There's many skaters who have the wrong edge that isn't always called.
But none get criticized as much as Zhenya. Why?

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Becasue she gets scores like she is foot perfect. She is not, right? When someone gets very big score I expect perfect technic

moriel said:

I kinda disagree.

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Then write a detailed critical analysis of her program in comparison to the all time best programs, as I often have, and explain why you think her current skating is deserving of the scores it receives.

Baron Vladimir said:

you cant find the word ART nowhere in the current system. Nor judges job is to judge art. Nor you can judge art like that... Judges are judging perfomance of skating elements and thats the qualitative aspect of the scores. They are not judging (not supposed to judge) art (beauty) of performance for sure.

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The word "art" does not need to be found anywhere, the elements of art are described within the PCS. The judges absolutely ARE supposed to be judging beauty of performance and yes you can "judge art like that". That is always how it has been and you are crazy to try and say otherwise. It doesn't seem you understand figure skating history at all. You can even look at the NOW if you have trouble understanding - why do you think officials within the ISU are pushing to reward artistry more? Exactly in their own words. Artistry.

Blades of Passion said:

The word "art" does not need to be found anywhere, the elements of art are described within the PCS. The judges absolutely ARE supposed to be judging beauty of performance and yes you can "judge art like that". That is always how it has been and you are crazy to try and say otherwise. It doesn't seem you understand figure skating history at all. You can even look at the NOW if you have trouble understanding - why do you think officials within the ISU are pushing to reward artistry more? Exactly in their own words. Artistry.

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'Medvedeva is artisticly half point better than Ashley in interpretation of the music' - that sentence sounds as the regullar one for you Where did you see art can be judged like that? Please, i wanna see... And you are the first one always complaining about judges score, so for me that just prove you dont know what judges are exactly judging.

UpNorth said:

So another question....have Mirai's skating skills deteriorated since she was successful early on (I'm thinking her SP at worlds 2010) or has her inconsistency shot her in the foot reputation-judging wise?

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I think Mirtai's skating skills have had their ups and downs over her career. In my opinion the main thing was that she lost her verve and sparkle somewhere along the way and spent some time wandering in the wilderness .(Before this year. Go Mirai.)

If i remember correctly, Verve and Sparkle are two of the Program Components, right?

Blades of Passion said:

Then write a detailed critical analysis of her program in comparison to the all time best programs, as I often have, and explain why you think her current skating is deserving of the scores it receives.

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I think there was some sort of misunderstanding =)
I disagree with your " People are so desperate for some real unfettered skating that Carolina is being held up as a symbol". Many people arent - many people find her programs boring and are not at all desperate for more of that. If you need proof, basically any thread here on forum, there will be 100500 of those people who are not desperate at all for what Caro does, and find it boring and not sporty enough and blablabla, me being one of those.

But if proof is still needed, I can bring some quotes.


As for all the artistry pushing, I am still waiting for ISU to actually make a study of what people want from figure skating, and what it would take to actually make more people watch figure skating. Because while people keep saying "artistry is salvation", i think salvation is a transparent and understandable judging system (without those magical numbers that a casual viewer cannot understand at all), and focusing on the sport aspects of it, because that is what seem to impress the most my non FS fan friends.

moriel said:

Transitions should be incorporated into TES, and skating skill, i suppose, into GOE.
The way PCs are currently awarded makes so sense even for experienced fans, and it would be better without them.

While judges still do shady stuff with TES, it is still easier to track and account for than PCs.

I´m mostly for some clear and transparent scoring.
For example, i want GOE to not be given as a value, but for the judges to check the bullets they think apply to a certain jump, and so on.

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I like your proposal. As TR out of elements are part of positive GOEs, it does make sense to reward skaters there and I love the proposal of judges checking off GOE bullets. It will make things way more transparent and hold accountability in a more public fashion. As FS is technically a sport, I will say keep the TES and GOEs as you propose and keep the two more subjective elements, say SS and PE. Have PE just encompass the whole package of interpretive skills and choreo. Perhaps just set both on a grade of say 10 each. Those two scores can add to the TES and GOEs for a final score. Of course I am not saying the implementation is easy (e.g. Time spent to check bullet point boxes) and some factoring will be needed to ensure that SS and PE becoming relatively more important to ladies as their TES are lower. But it's a start.

The biggest problem with judging is human nature itself #DeepThoughts

Baron Vladimir said:

Where did you see art can be judged like that?

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It constantly is. Judges in the past always gave an overall "presentation" score that included the artistry of the skater. This mark, the "PCS", was specifically called "artistic impression" during the 1990's. As for as other forms of judging art in the world, you can also look at film reviews and see how critics assign a score to movies, trying to approximate their overall feeling of the worth, success, and artistic merit of a film. This can also be seen in how awards are given out for novels, painting, theatre, etc - a statement of people comparing and contrasting art, trying to approximately rank and assess the quality of each work.