PCS/Reputation Judging | Page 6 | Golden Skate

PCS/Reputation Judging

Miss Ice

Let the sky fall~
Medalist
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
What would you like to see on a judging exam?

They should get slow-mo or even real-time videos of different elements (includng examples of bad/good SS and transitions) and should be able to identify clear UR that is over 1/4 UR or pre-rotation by 1/2 or more that very clearly leads to lower GOE or lower base value. Although the base value test based on edges and UR should probably be given to the tech controller. :scratch2:
 
Joined
Mar 16, 2012
And of the tech panel in NHK ladies: what would have happened in Osaka if they called Medvedeva on the inside edge take off of her lutz? She was very off and while her past showed serious work on the edge when having a bad night she reverted back to the inside edge on the lutz.
They could have gained credibility and she would know the panel gets it, which would only make her work harder to deal with it. (And she still would have won) What frightens the panel so much that they turn a blind eye?
I love figure skating. I admire the skaters so much. I have almost zero respect left for technical panels and judges. So many complaints about Kostner result of GOE and her PCs but if the panels had not been handing out for example, level 4s for numerous dirty turns to many, body movement on two feet my grandmother achieves in her chair yoga, high GOE for ugly spin positions at a slow speed while travelling, I mean holy bleep, look at the freakin centre for heavens sake, PCs to Medvedeva like candy for interesting and busy skating but not refinement in the least over the year they would not have had to go so high to express their understanding that Kostner's mastery is above Medvedeva.
I really think all skaters would welcome truth in marking.
I can't help but imagine a world where skaters compete knowing they will be accurately evaluated on s consistent basis. I bet we would have many many more great performances by all levels.
Seriously, skaters know, and how would you feel looking at someone you know is not as good as their marks? How would you skate? The whole thing is nuts.
Thank god I go back to work for a short contract. So much time to think makes me sad. I counsel people. Really. So I know HOPE is critical. It's no mystery many are faltering. They either have to be blind to it all, skating only for the pure joy of it all, or crumble in despair. Yet put on a good face...don't y'all see it? Radionova? Breaks my heart. Will Lip be ok long term? Why do Tara and Johnny speak through such barely veiled malice and cathartic experience? How many silver medalists have you heard needed intense therapy?
Put the judges and tech panel through intensely detailed written and scrupulous oral examination, evaluate what's really fine in the moment and watch great performances and increased tech come flying out by even the most unexpected.
Dream or fantasy? 😢😢😢
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Ya'll can simmer down with the "it's only a sport, no art" kind of talk.[/url]

I don't think anyone is saying it's ONLY a sport, and there's NO art. Competitive figure skating, however, is PREDOMINANTLY a sport - considerably more than it is an art - and should focus on athleticism. Artistry makes the sport interesting and accessible to people - after all skaters perform, they don't just skate. You want art... save that for exhibitions and ice shows. But if we are talking Olympic worthy skating, the athleticism and technical ability is fundamental. Same as in gymnastics or synchronized swimming... artistry is key, BUT technical ability is king.

That's why I'm super glad PCS is (for now) staying normal. Increasing the scale would only magnify the advantage the favourites have... and it's not like the judges (as you've alluded to) will not favour them based on reputation. It's like GOE scoring next year. Please... the only thing that will change is giving the favourites 0 instead of -2s for a fall, and giving them +4 for a stepout because "Hey I reduced my GOE by 1! See, I'm being critical!". Meanwhile a newbie can do an awesome jumping pass, and the judges will be like "+1, since you deserve a bit of a bonus". Really, the only thing that saves competitions from becoming total popularity contests is the base value technical score that the judges have not as much control over. A judge can add as many +2's as they want to that "gorgeous" doubled quad, but it's still going to cost the skater 9 points.
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
I still don't get it. You are saying that there is no art in figure skating because the artistic aspects can be broken down into components and bullet points. You can just as well say that there is no sport in figure skating because there is a specific scale of values.

True, the word "art" is not used in the statement of the scoring rules. Neither is the word "sport." Why are we so afraid to speak of "performance art," like we are sullying our hands to mention it?

Not at all. Im not saying there is no art in FS. Im saying that judges job is not to determine what is more artistic and what is less artistic nor PCS have pretensions to say that.
 

charlotte14

Medalist
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
If you are emphasizing art so far, why can you ignore too bad arrangements of competitors?
From the point of view of art, they are of a level that throws away.
If you truly understand art, there is no way you can endure figure skating music arrangement.
I swear to God that all the most acclaimed artists in the world can jump in a conversation and there is no true and mutual understanding of art from them lol.
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
These are things that have ALWAYS been judged and valued in figure skating. I'm not sure where you get your ideas, but they do not relate to how figure skating has been viewed, appreciated, and judged for nearly a century now.

They are of course valued and appriciated by the viewers and people involved in figure skating. I was saying how those things are not the one which are judged between the skaters to determine the winner. There is nothing of that in the rules of the components scoring. If you think that 6.0 artistic impression is now what PCS is all about then you never read well, or understood what it is judging in PCS... In any sport competitions the winner is not the one who played or did something more beautifully (even if sometime that is the thing more valued by the viewers), nor judges job is to determine that (because beautiness is purely subjective), but the one who scored more goals/points (always determined by some objective merrits).
 
Joined
Mar 16, 2012
Gkelly: I would love to know that they have to watch several videos and point out (for very brief examples as I hate typing)
SS: explain where there is and isnt: depth of edge and why (sometimes it's intentional non?) , where power and flow came from, explanation of masterful rhythm of even simple crossovers, where and why two foot is used, (think Shoma, deep knees but two foot everywhere!) standard of stepping onto a clean edge, sound of the blades, etc
Transitions: watch videos and explain what's difficult and intricate and the point of why they do it, a composition: watch videos of championship programs and lower levels and explain what is a good composition regardless of age etc, and why, performance skills: explain difference between skaters, all retired for fairness, like body line, minute details of differences between top skaters, effort and use of arms, attention to precise movementbof every limb where it is and where it isn't, angles of head stiff or fluid, purposeful or just cus, light or intensity in the face that shows what is authentic and what is put on, passion for moving or moving because have to, interpretation what is in time, aware of style structure of music and sensitivity to even the less obvious nuances that are so important...I hate answering this off top of my head. But the exam should include music samples and the judge define the structure, genre and style, the expected type of movement yet also explain what it would take to be a modern abstract form of...with a panel of skaters, dancers, movement professors of all forms of folk etc, musicians, artists from various forms.
I don't care if it seems extreme.
They decide the future of young lives. Any judge that sits there with the 'I've watched skating for 40 years' attitude or any tech panel that sits there with the 'I'll show you how smart I am' attitude is disgusting. If its a judge that studies hard all year and wants to puke from the responsibility, let em go for it. The entitled ones with a job to do would never pass the exam, and Hallelujah for skating.
 

rabbit1234

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 17, 2017
I swear to God that all the most acclaimed artists in the world can jump in a conversation and there is no true and mutual understanding of art from them lol.

Even so, we should not bring in elements that are judged according to the subjectivity of such individuals.
That is like I like a blonde hair lady, so it should be a high score.:coffee:
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
I swear to God that all the most acclaimed artists in the world can jump in a conversation and there is no true and mutual understanding of art from them lol.

Because of that fact, i was saying that judges job is not to judge art itself (in terms of what is more artistic) but perfomance aspect (in terms of who perform more harder things and more different things and more lenght of time - with more using of the blades and with whole body and mental involvement - in the ice rink, to the music rythm and for the audience). Maybe im wrong, but in my books skaters perfomance of the programme is not the same as artistic impression of skaters programme. Because the first is determined by more objective aspects and second is impression of what someone prefer more.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
I was saying how those things are not the one which are judged and which determine the winner. There is nothing of that in the rules of the components scoring.

Yes there is. What do you not understand about lines such as:

"The involvement of the skater physically, emotionally, and intellectually as they translate the intent of the music and choreography."

"The personal and creative translation of the music to movement on ice. To reward the skater who through movement creates a personal and creative translation of the music."

"Every step, movement, and element is motivated by the music. As well, all its parts, big or small, seem necessary to the whole."

"A phrase is a unit of movement marked by an impulse of energy that grows, builds, finds a conclusion, and then flows easily and naturally into the next movement phrase. Form is the presentation of an idea, the development of the idea, and its conclusion presented in a specific number of parts and a specific order for design."

"Finesse is the skater’s refined, artful manipulation of nuances. Nuances are the personal, artistic ways of bringing subtle variations to the intensity, tempo, and dynamics of the music."

"Clarity is characterized by the refined lines of the body and limbs, as well as the precise execution of any movement."

"Style is the distinctive use of line and movement as inspired by the music. Individuality/personality is a combination of personal and artistic preferences that a skater brings to the concept, manner, and content of the program."​

-----

Guess what, the word "art" IS used in official ISU explanations, in multiple components.

The judges ARE supposed to reward skaters for "beauty of performance" and "who interprets music better" and "who has the most beautiful lines". End of story, thanks.
 

rabbit1234

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 17, 2017
Judges do not take exams on art.
Judges do not necessarily understand art.
So, good points can be attached to such a badly arranged program.
I do not want people who do not understand art to judge about art.
This thread is a thread about PCS.
I think it should be discussed using PCS terms.
 
Joined
Mar 16, 2012
Tomorrow I go back to work on a short term contract. I'm grateful. After years of lurking I started to post thoughts. But my gut just wants to watch all the incredible skaters and enjoy them, not evaluate them. It takes away from my pleasure in the sport. Polina's fresh faced pleasure in her candy land, Medvedeva's journey all the more interesting for showing human traits, oh how I wish Pogorilaya could skate well to feel satisfaction, Osmand's prowess, Daleman's don't count me out bravado, Carolina's divine movement and see how it impacts skating as a whole, and oh wow Satoko's quality and how she will skate regardless of the intense pressure, the future of all the other Japanese girls as they find their true niche...the men and their mind boggling technical prowess, competitiveness and resolve, may they all please be healthy so they can be the best of themselves, the pairs oh yea, the "How do they do that" and the magic only a pair can create on their journey through extreme sport, the ice dancers as they work their butts off through predetermined results and the commitment the rest of the group show just for the pure sake of it all. I want to live in that world of respect. No shade thrown on them their coaches their choreographers. I respect them all, it must be so hard to do what they do, obstacles they face that we can't even imagine. Everyone only to be quickly judged by those that sit in a warm chair as they dish out critique on mind blowing sacrifice and effort. Dear god I pray they don't read these forums. It would only be worth it if each post has a face and career on the line based on what they say and do. I wish the judges' and tech panels'careers were on the line too.
I tried, posting is not for me. Reading this stuff hurts. I just want to live skating and enjoy all skaters and their effort.
See you later. Not.
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
The judges ARE supposed to reward skaters for "beauty of performance" and "who interprets music better" and "who has the most beautiful lines". End of story, thanks.

First, english is not my native and i express my self sometimes wrongly. If you want to use that to arguing with me, ok, i have no problem. After all, those were my mistakes... Second, you used only small part of PCS explanations there, the same way you used only small part of my posts to comment on them. Both PCS regulations and my words you need to read from begining to end to understand it right. Third, those more artistic aspects (which i involved talking about performance aspect) is what is expected from skaters - to involve in programme, to translate the music, to use adequate movements to adequate music styles, to use more variations in movements and doin it more precisely. But in terms that skater have that while skating (in their own individual way). Focus is not on which form is better, which finesses are better and which style is better (because you can use every style you want, from baletic to techno, and present it in any way you want). So, PCS focus is not on which is more beautifull or more artistic, but how much you are using those in your own programme.
 

Interspectator

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Tomorrow I go back to work on a short term contract. I'm grateful. After years of lurking I started to post thoughts. But my gut just wants to watch all the incredible skaters and enjoy them, not evaluate them. It takes away from my pleasure in the sport. Polina's fresh faced pleasure in her candy land, Medvedeva's journey all the more interesting for showing human traits, oh how I wish Pogorilaya could skate well to feel satisfaction, Osmand's prowess, Daleman's don't count me out bravado, Carolina's divine movement and see how it impacts skating as a whole, and oh wow Satoko's quality and how she will skate regardless of the intense pressure, the future of all the other Japanese girls as they find their true niche...the men and their mind boggling technical prowess, competitiveness and resolve, may they all please be healthy so they can be the best of themselves, the pairs oh yea, the "How do they do that" and the magic only a pair can create on their journey through extreme sport, the ice dancers as they work their butts off through predetermined results and the commitment the rest of the group show just for the pure sake of it all. I want to live in that world of respect. No shade thrown on them their coaches their choreographers. I respect them all, it must be so hard to do what they do, obstacles they face that we can't even imagine. Everyone only to be quickly judged by those that sit in a warm chair as they dish out critique on mind blowing sacrifice and effort. Dear god I pray they don't read these forums. It would only be worth it if each post has a face and career on the line based on what they say and do. I wish the judges' and tech panels'careers were on the line too.
I tried, posting is not for me. Reading this stuff hurts. I just want to live skating and enjoy all skaters and their effort.
See you later. Not.

One of the wonderful things about skating as you pointed out is that it can be enjoyed, and one can be immersed in the experience of watching a beautiful program without knowing anything about the technicalities of skating. Enjoying posting on message boards about FS is certainly not for everyone. Many also choose to only post on the Fan or Game threads and not get into the debates at all. I hope you will continue to enjoy the skating that you see, in the way you choose to enjoy it. :ghug:
 
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rabbit1234

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 17, 2017
I think that it is an attempt to excessively say, picking up the word being used. Many words are used there.

If art is important, competitors who use cheap music or competitors who are arranging badly should only be given low marks. That's a lot.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
I don't think anyone is saying it's ONLY a sport

Except people are, if you read the thread. There are posters saying "get rid of PCS!" and "Artistry is not judged!"

Competitive figure skating, however, is PREDOMINANTLY a sport - considerably more than it is an art - and should focus on athleticism. Artistry makes the sport interesting and accessible to people - after all skaters perform, they don't just skate. You want art... save that for exhibitions and ice shows. But if we are talking Olympic worthy skating, the athleticism and technical ability is fundamental.

Pulling out that tired old "save it for exhibitions" again.

What people want to see is artistry combined with all of the technical content. It's impossible to have that in exhibitions, people hardcore train competitive programs, not exhibitions. There is a SPECIFIC kind of artistry to competitive skating. It needs to be worth a lot, as it is very difficult to achieve. Doing technical elements in isolation is nowhere near as difficult as doing them within a whole performance.

Technical ability should be "king" in the sense that everyone should have a high level of technical ability. Technical ability should not inherently overpower everything else though. If doing quads for example are suddenly the only important thing because the PCS are no longer ever able to be worthwhile enough in comparison, then the amount of quads allowed in programs and/or what the PCS are worth should be addressed.

What this sport operated on for a long time, including its most successful period ever, was 50% technical elements and 50% "presentation". There is nothing that says "the sport should be mostly technical and artistry should only be a tiebreaker between equal technical displays". That's not what the majority of people want. Greater artistic displays should be relatively competitive with greater technical displays. This was always accepted in the Olympics for figure skating and I'm sure why you can't accept it. Just look at figure skating as the most athletic artistic endeavor in the world. Overlap is allowed. It can be both.

This argument has a clear example when looking at the Long Program performances of Adam Rippon and Sergei Voronov at NHK:

If you compare the technical difference of their performances, all Voronov has over Rippon is 1 Quad Toe (instead of a 3Flip), while at the same time Rippon did a second 3Flip when Voronov only did a 2Axel. So that's only barely any technical difference between them. The difference then should come down to the PCS. Rippon should have comfortably won this Long Program based upon his far superior artistry (Performance, Choreography, Interpretation). Yet, the judges didn't even give Rippon higher PCS than Voronov.

Even so, we should not bring in elements that are judged according to the subjectivity of such individuals.

EVERYTHING is already subjective. The point of an official judging panel is taking people who are the most educated about a subject and getting their opinion (the current judging panels are not the most educated group, but I digress). People need to embrace it and LET the skaters show their artistry and let it flourish. The audience will decide their favorites and so will the judges. If you remove the aspects that actually draw people in, then there's little appeal left to the sport. The scores are always going to be debated anyway, there are many disagreements about technical elements alone. No point in marginalizing artistry and killing the sport. We've already had to suffer that for a decade.

Focus is not which form is better, which finesses are better and which style is better. Just how much you are using that in your own program.

There's no such thing as "how much you are using form". Everyone has a form 100% of the time, whether you are sitting or standing or running. It's specifically about the quality of each form, the artistic worth OF the skater's form, particularly in relation to the music and the overall performance as a whole.
 

rabbit1234

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 17, 2017
We will return topics to PCS.
NHK trophy FP

Skating Skills
8.89 Jason BROWN
8.71 Sergei VORONOV
8.54 Adam RIPPON
8.18 Keegan MESSING
8.14 Alexei BYCHENKO
8.11 Deniss VASILJEVS
8.07 Michal BREZINA
7.89 Dmitri ALIEV
7.71 Kazuki TOMONO
7.21 Nam NGUYEN
7.04 Hiroaki SATO

Transitions
8.93 Jason BROWN
8.29 Sergei VORONOV
8.29 Adam RIPPON
7.89 Alexei BYCHENKO
7.89 Deniss VASILJEVS
7.86 Keegan MESSING
7.79 Michal BREZINA
7.50 Dmitri ALIEV
7.46 Kazuki TOMONO
6.68 Nam NGUYEN
6.54 Hiroaki SATO

Performance
8.89 Sergei VORONOV
8.79 Jason BROWN
8.75 Adam RIPPON
8.21 Deniss VASILJEVS
8.18 Alexei BYCHENKO
8.18 Keegan MESSING
7.89 Michal BREZINA
7.79 Kazuki TOMONO
7.61 Dmitri ALIEV
7.00 Nam NGUYEN
6.75 Hiroaki SATO

Composition
9.11 Jason BROWN
8.68 Sergei VORONOV
8.46 Adam RIPPON
8.29 Deniss VASILJEVS
8.11 Keegan MESSING
8.11 Michal BREZINA
8.07 Alexei BYCHENKO
7.89 Dmitri ALIEV
7.86 Kazuki TOMONO
7.07 Nam NGUYEN
7.00 Hiroaki SATO

Interpretation of the Music
9.21 Jason BROWN
8.79 Sergei VORONOV
8.75 Adam RIPPON
8.43 Deniss VASILJEVS
8.21 Keegan MESSING
8.07 Michal BREZINA
8.07 Alexei BYCHENKO
7.86 Kazuki TOMONO
7.82 Dmitri ALIEV
7.14 Nam NGUYEN
6.96 Hiroaki SATO

Jason is the top other than performance.
performance is an item that is affected by mistakes of jumping and the like.
I do not think this is reputation judgment.
Because a good competitor can be said to be good even after making a few mistakes.

I do not understand a little about PCS / Reputation Judging .
Even if you make a mistake in skateing skill, it does not change so much.

I think that it is a problem that the standards are not unified by the competitor.
There is a competitor that is largely deducted and a competitor that is not almost deducted.

The biggest problem is the concept of PCS.
It is unclear which part of the performance the PCS's grading object is thinking about.
Are they scored excluding time zones affecting elements other than Elements and GOE, or are they scored for all including them? If everything is the subject, we will count mistakes a number of deductions.
I think the rule is not clear. I think it is one cause that PCS discussion is confused.

There was a change in the rules from this season and there was a big mistake it was decided not to give 10 points by PCS.
However, to the contrary, until the previous season, even if there was a mistake it could be that there were 10 PCS points. Actually, even if there was a mistake, 10 points were given.
Is this the concept of PCS changed between this season and the previous season?
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
We will return topics to PCS.
The biggest problem is the concept of PCS.
It is unclear which part of the performance the PCS's grading object is thinking about.
Are they scored excluding time zones affecting elements other than Elements and GOE, or are they scored for all including them? If everything is the subject, we will count mistakes a number of deductions.

My understanding is that PCS apply to the whole program.
That includes technical elements, but it does not privilege the elements. If a jump plus its setup and exit takes 10 seconds, that's 10 seconds worth of the program, or 1/25th of a 4:10 program (maximum for a ladies freeskate). If the skater does a great job interpreting the music for all but those 10 seconds, but ignores the music only for those 10 seconds (e.g., stalking a 3A, or fall and fairly quick recovery after a musically approached jump, but no other breaks anywhere else), then an IN score up to 9.5 could be justified. If there are multiple breaks in the interpretation to execute multiple elements, then the final score would be lower.

There was a change in the rules from this season and there was a big mistake it was decided not to give 10 points by PCS.
However, to the contrary, until the previous season, even if there was a mistake it could be that there were 10 PCS points. Actually, even if there was a mistake, 10 points were given.
Is this the concept of PCS changed between this season and the previous season?

I don't think the whole concept has changed. More that judges have been more willing to give top scores in the past 4 years than when the system was first introduced, and sometimes that involved giving top scores to programs with visible mistakes. So the concept of what should constitutes a score of 10.0 has newly been addressed, because no one thought to address it explicitly in the days when 9s were rare.

The bigger change was what encouraged judges to stop being hesitant to award 9s before ca. 2014.

The detailed explanations of the program components and their criteria that were published in 2009, which Blades of Passion quotes above, were a change. Not so much "Stop doing what you were doing and do something else," but written guidelines for how better to think about what judges were already doing, what they were still figuring out about a new way of scoring programs. But it was more about explaining the content of what judges should be considering for each component score.

Last year some of the criteria were deleted from the component chart and the component explanations document was removed. I don't know why. Probably just to streamline the documentation.

There haven't really been detailed guidelines about how to turn evaluations into numbers, especially the difference between PCS numbers on what's supposed to be a more or less absolute scale not about comparing skaters to each other, as distinct from the ranking process that long-time judges were used to from ordinal judging.

The chart defines 5 as Average, 6 Above Average, 7 Good, 8 Very Good, 9 and 10 Outstanding. But it's up to each judge to decide where to draw the line between Good and Very Good, or how to balance out different criteria for the same component if they're not all in the same range. I think Performance and Composition are where we're most likely to see performances that are notably stronger in some of that component's criteria and weaker in others.
 

YesWay

四年もかけて&#
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
There haven't really been detailed guidelines about how to turn evaluations into numbers, especially the difference between PCS numbers on what's supposed to be a more or less absolute scale not about comparing skaters to each other, as distinct from the ranking process that long-time judges were used to from ordinal judging.
Indeed - I've never seen any guidance documenting that (not that I've really tried), although there were the ISU old videos (that showed up on youtube), demonstrating different levels of quality in the various components/criteria.

But I am under the impression that ISU judges must be given training/guidance on such things, beyond that? Even if it's only behind closed doors?

Because, as part of their qualification exams, they have to judge actual competitions... and you would think (Ha!) if they "got it wrong" they would be given feedback as to why?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think that it is an attempt to excessively say, picking up the word being used. Many words are used there.

Yes, the ISU uses many words to catalogue what the judges should be evaluating. The judges are expected to pay attention to all of the criteria, to the best of their ability. When we read in the ISU rule book under PCS the sections that Blades of Passion quoted:

"A phrase is a unit of movement marked by an impulse of energy that grows, builds, finds a conclusion, and then flows easily and naturally into the next movement phrase. Form is the presentation of an idea, the development of the idea, and its conclusion presented in a specific number of parts and a specific order for design."

"Finesse is the skater’s refined, artful manipulation of nuances. Nuances are the personal, artistic ways of bringing subtle variations to the intensity, tempo, and dynamics of the music."

"Clarity is characterized by the refined lines of the body and limbs, as well as the precise execution of any movement."

"Style is the distinctive use of line and movement as inspired by the music. Individuality/personality is a combination of personal and artistic preferences that a skater brings to the concept, manner, and content of the program."

-- well, we do not expect the judges to throw this away and say, figure skating is a sport so I will ignore these particular rules.

There is a reason why figure skating judges are called "judges" and not scorekeepers.
 
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