Understanding Virtue and Moir | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Understanding Virtue and Moir

ChanClan

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 4, 2017
they score higher??yeah , french with with one level3 and one 4 gets over 119, canadians with the same level ,one 3 and one 4 gets 117 so???? so french when they get two levels4 will score almost 121, v/m 119 +

Just so we are clear, I was talking about VM scoring higher because the person I was talking to said that they can't score high enough in the FD but they haven't reached all their levels yet so they can still score higher than what they've got so far. Plus they've had some bobbles in their step sequences which affected their GOE, so I'd say they could probably get over 120 if they skate clean and hit their levels. This wasn't a dig at the french team or me saying that they will beat the french in the FD because while I don't like PC FD, I doubt VM will be able to beat it.
 

Barb

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
It will be set in stone this weekend. Ready to bet a very large sum that P/C will score 120+ with the FD this weekend. It will be very hard for V/M to overcome that, especially if they only have 1 level 3 and everything is already at a 4. It's a PCS thing, and by this point in the season, the judges have basically already decided what PCS will be given to each team. V/M just won't get enough PCS to overcome the gap that will occur in the FD scores, even if they lead after the SD.

these kind of comments make it seem as if P/C´s win already was fixed. Your comments don´t help them.
 

all that

Final Flight
Joined
May 4, 2007
P/C don't need my help nor anyone else's, and I'm certainly not hurting them by saying what I'm saying. I'm just stating what will soon become obvious.

And yes, the question of whether ice dance should be in the Olympics comes up every 4 years and yet, here we are, with ice dance still in the Olympics.
 

Bcash

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
They will go down as one of the greatest teams in history.
Their quality is undeniable.

The problem is, the things that favored them in their rivalry with D/W: depth of edge, body line, extension, connection, are no longer advantages when compared to P/C today.

Visually, I think Tessa looks better now than in 2014, when she was almost as broad as Scott.
 

all that

Final Flight
Joined
May 4, 2007
They will go down as one of the greatest teams in history.
Their quality is undeniable.

The problem is, the things that favored them in their rivalry with D/W: depth of edge, body line, extension, connection, are no longer advantages when compared to P/C today.

None of those things favored them then either, as they lost to D/W. They are very good dancers though. Their Sochi SD was amazing, and vastly underscored. The politics in this sport are sad sometimes.
 

NoNameFace

GS given name - Beatrice
Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
They will go down as one of the greatest teams in history.
Their quality is undeniable.

The problem is, the things that favored them in their rivalry with D/W: depth of edge, body line, extension, connection, are no longer advantages when compared to P/C today.

Visually, I think Tessa looks better now than in 2014, when she was almost as broad as Scott.

for me, those could actually be still advantages in comparison, but lost its significance/impact/magnitude on preference showed. New quad, new teams, new dynamic and new perspective created and influenced mostly by French team post-Sochi - it's no really a wonder why Ice Dance seems to be evaluated through Gabriella/Guillaume's work. Tessa and Scott returned to that new reality in ID competition after 2-year hiatus - does it mean that they have to conform mandatorily to the style preferred, lead in the discipline? They showed that they came back with strong presence and self-confidence, vision input into stuff they present now, not necessarily translating into universal liking and titles.

and about 'broad' Tessa remark...despite the way people viewed her statue/physique then, she was always an amazing athlete with skill to admire and be desired for, I'd never use 'broad' remark to any female Ice Dancer, so i'll leave it there before saying something I'd regret.
 

all that

Final Flight
Joined
May 4, 2007
for me, those could actually be still advantages in comparison, but lost its significance/impact/magnitude on preference showed. New quad, new teams, new dynamic and new perspective created and influenced mostly by French team post-Sochi - it's no really a wonder why Ice Dance seems to be evaluated through Gabriella/Guillaume's work.

This may be true when it comes to the FD, but I wouldn't say it's true for ice dance overall.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
This question comes up every four years as the IOC tries to decide whether ice dancing should actually be an Olympic sport.


During what I like to call The Lawrence Welk Era (ie pre-Torvil and Dean's Bolero) this was a legitimate concern. But now, it's just churlishness. If P/C has ushered in the era of Modern Dance being acceptable, the Marlie/Voir era really accelerated the athletic side of ID. Think I'm kidding? Go back and look at the years between Bolero and the quad culminating in the Vancouver Olympics. Look at how basic and simple things like lifts are. Step sequences. Twizzles. Really, Marlie/Voir should be credited for elevating the discipline and making the "is ID really a sport?" question essentially rhetorical. Of course it is.
 

all that

Final Flight
Joined
May 4, 2007
During what I like to call The Lawrence Welk Era (ie pre-Torvil and Dean's Bolero) this was a legitimate concern. But now, it's just churlishness. If P/C has ushered in the era of Modern Dance being acceptable, the Marlie/Voir era really accelerated the athletic side of ID. Think I'm kidding? Go back and look at the years between Bolero and the quad culminating in the Vancouver Olympics. Look at how basic and simple things like lifts are. Step sequences. Twizzles. Really, Marlie/Voir should be credited for elevating the discipline and making the "is ID really a sport?" question essentially rhetorical. Of course it is.

Whether ice dance should be thrown out may be questionable, but whether the terms "Marlie" and "Voir" should be thrown out is not. They're the dumbest names ever and I can't believe people are still using them.
 

lyndichee

Medalist
Joined
Sep 16, 2014
Whether ice dance should be thrown out may be questionable, but whether the terms "Marlie" and "Voir" should be thrown out is not. They're the dumbest names ever and I can't believe people are still using them.

If you don't like it don't use it? Pretty sure the poster was using them for convenience and it doesn't take away from their point. This isn't relevant to the discussion at this point.

Ice is slippery. I'm excited to see them at the GPF again.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Whether ice dance should be thrown out may be questionable, but whether the terms "Marlie" and "Voir" should be thrown out is not. They're the dumbest names ever and I can't believe people are still using them.

If those are "the dumbest names ever" then you certainly have led a charmed life.

Or don't read much on the internet.

:hap57:
 

sarama

Medalist
Joined
Apr 23, 2014
This is one place where I do have to disagree. V/M have always taken a dance-focused approach to their skating. It's why their SDs are generally so good, and how they created programs like Carmen, their Latin FD, and Pink Floyd (which even P/C liked). They did suffer through a lot of injuries so I think they weren't able to compete to the best of their ability between 2010-2014, which is probably what prompted the comeback (among other reasons they have stated).
What I meant is that they were truer to "old school ice dance" when they were with Marina. More focus on holds, skating close, traditional ballroom style. Their last two SDs have definitely been out the box, and their FDs are much more open, according to the direction the sport has taken. It's not a critique. The whole sport has change a lot, and I'm glad we got the chance to see two different versions of Tessa and Scott. They are great at both, so more power to them
 

NoNameFace

GS given name - Beatrice
Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
I have watched skating for many many years - I am relatively knowledgeable. While I anticipate surprises during the Olympic season, I have also come to expect some "sure things" - and here is the issue.
I do not get Virtue and Moir. He appears to be perpetually scowling and angry - she does not have lithe -like quality of Gabrielle P. I watched their programs with and without music - I do not see or feel anything spectacular. Looking at their competition - Papadakis and Cizeron have a mystical quality, The Shibs have "like-ability" and Cappellini and Lanotte ooze warmth.

Explain what I am missing?

I'd pose a question slightly differently: are you not getting Virtue/Moir skating/expression at all, their scores/results or the way they are 'got' by many people? In all honesty, we could pose such question(s) for every Ice Dance team competing now and then, seeing that a separate thread was created to respond to a question already pretty much answered by an author, for a team that never was an universal love for skating fans, makes me just wonder to the times when another great competitive rivarly was in place in ID, but with so little quality and respect in discussions on many forums.

First of all - if you're unsure about your preferences and convictions towards Ice Dance standards, work you are responding to, searching an answer in others having entire different way of perception and their preferences is not going to change your mind, especially looking at 'assessment' you've made in your initial post. You are clearly appreciating and searching for qualities that other teams represent in YOUR opinion, mostly considering 'external' ones (Scott's expression, Tessa's body/buildt, others appeal in general) and stating that Scott or Tessa are not having those features seems to prove that you simply has particular, personal preference and don't really want to change it, more like you're searching for justification of your reception (or lack of thereof).

It leads to he moment where part of posters will agree with you, the other part will argue with you, because well - your opinion voiced and question pretty much answered already will attract attention, since Virtue/Moir attract it too for over 10 years of their senior competitive career, however the attraction they get has an entire different core. Viewers grativate towards stuff and teams they respond, relate the strongest - this leads to emotional, personal attachment and puts kind of 'filter' on viewing other teams through that kind of quality/aesthetic, which then could lead to threads like this particular one. It would be much easier to just go through this season, past season threads for Ice Dance competition and see people's response to Virtue/Moir's stuff, how they 'get' this team - you could find different statements there, more or less personally-infused, more or less over technique, expression etc. It all comprises on the whole reception of Virtue/Moir, which is more than less made from comparing them to others, precisely what they're lacking in comparison to other teams, at least nowadays. Looking at the topic in that particular way, we could also simply state that they won't magically become someone's favourite team or get such qualities/features just because this someone cannot 'get' Virtue/Moir, it doesn't work that way. And I would not even qualify not 'getting' Virtue/Moir as an 'issue' - not liking oranges, when you have so many other fruits around, is not a crime nor a reason to make such fuss about it. Since last season, people's opinions vary in the same measure about Virtue/Moir like it was in previous quad, nothing new about that.

If 'getting' Virtue/Moir overall and 'getting' others' opinions about them is a matter of personal, often 'own favourites'-influenced preferrence, what about those scores and judges' minds? For me, whatever to be said about their expression and the vibe of their programs (de gustibus...), their quality of execution and technique basics, effort made in purely technical sense spoken, integrating it into whole performance is ona very high level and cannot be simply overlooked, because someone whine over 'Moulin Rouge' choice. What's even more remarkable - and appreciated by judges over the years and few people I think, too - is their flexibility/adaptive quality to accommodate this technical prowess into performance in various styles, tempos and aesthetics. And they are pretty expressive skaters who use their faces also to compliment their bodies' work put into interpretation and giving out the vibe and atmosphere created by music, movement and performance - not everybody is responsive and enthusiastic for it, but I think it gives some dimension to their skating and could actually convince someone to their way of telling the story/leading the performance, too. Your statement on Scott's 'scowling' and being 'angry' is yours to have, same as others' reception being as 'focused', 'passionate' or 'consumed into character/performance', one picture - multiple interpretations. About Tessa not being 'lithe-like quality'...I would totally rather distance myself from voicing a personal preference over skaters' bodies/silhouettes to look like, since I'm struggling with my own body perception - I'd only say that every skaters' goal should be probably the level of confidence Tessa has about her body, the way her carriage over the ice looks like and how her presence on ice builds the performance; for me, she always feels empowered by the way she looks and it transates on strenght exuding by the way she skates.

You said also that you don't see or feel anything 'spectacular' watching them - but is it necessary to feel something 'spectacular' out of sudden? To be honest, I've never associated Virtue/Moir with 'spectacular' adjective - throughout the years watching many teams and them in the process, I've appreciated probably the most things/feelings experienced like 'emotional/presentation richness', 'personality', 'closeness', 'depth of performance', it was more about how close I can get to their performance and to their skating, not how much can I appreciate 'spectacular' look of it. The strenght of Virtue/Moir is often viewed as presenting palpable connection between them and between them and music/choreography/performance in more 'physical'/sensual way than 'organic' one - this could count as 'spectacular', but again, it's about personal preference and reactions over stuff. Also, it never helps, if someone has already established a standard for 'spectacular' based on particular team/feature/way of expression etc. - therefore nothing else will feel as good/special, especially since Virtue/Moir are unlike any other team and vice versa in reversed perspective.
 

klutzy

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
I've never warmed up much to Virtue/Moir either--I'm sure part of that stems from of the post-Sochi stuff where their fans claimed that the fix was in for Davis/White, despite D/W having gone two years without losing a competition. The public grousing by Scott didn't help.

That said--here's what I see as V/M strengths: really deep edges and smooth skating--truly excellent skating skills; terrific unison--it helps to have been skating forever--it's not an accident that other teams with amazing unison (D/W, the Shibs) have also been skating together forever.

And Tessa. Scott's good, but Tessa's the strongest female ice dancer out there. Excellent balance and SS, strong, flexible core, good lines, good rhythm, connection to the audience. Kind of the flip of P/C, where Gabrielle is a lovely presence, but Guilliaume has that incredible flexibility and line that you just don't see with other men.

Sometimes I like to imagine what a Tessa/Guilliaume pairing would be like.
 

nocturnalis

Medalist
Joined
Jul 2, 2014
I've never warmed up much to Virtue/Moir either--I'm sure part of that stems from of the post-Sochi stuff where their fans claimed that the fix was in for Davis/White, despite D/W having gone two years without losing a competition. The public grousing by Scott didn't help.

That said--here's what I see as V/M strengths: really deep edges and smooth skating--truly excellent skating skills; terrific unison--it helps to have been skating forever--it's not an accident that other teams with amazing unison (D/W, the Shibs) have also been skating together forever.

And Tessa. Scott's good, but Tessa's the strongest female ice dancer out there. Excellent balance and SS, strong, flexible core, good lines, good rhythm, connection to the audience. Kind of the flip of P/C, where Gabrielle is a lovely presence, but Guilliaume has that incredible flexibility and line that you just don't see with other men.

Sometimes I like to imagine what a Tessa/Guilliaume pairing would be like.
People really down play how amazing Scott is. P/C really benefited from an easier scoring system. When they have to match lines or perform patterns like the Ravensberger Waltz, it ends up looking bad. There is a reason that they don't get good scores in the SD when they are in the same competitions as V/M.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I don't think we should downplay the athleticism many teams displayed in-between Torvill/Dean's Bolero and the Canton teams in Vancouver. Many pre-IJS ice dance programs were full of difficult steps, displays of athleticism, pure body movement and actual dance, and pure intricacy and in closer holds than what we see now. I mean however you feel about Oksana Grishuk, I'm still in awe at her athleticism when I watch videos of Grishuk/Platov. I think when ice dance started to become more objective and more about individual elements (after 1998 or 1999) that's when it became something one could compare more with today's style of ice dance. That said, there's still a way ice dancers really paid attention to body movement and intricacy back then that most don't do now with some exceptions obviously. I think Meryl/Charlie and Scott/Tessa can be credited for taking the itemized elements and really pushing it to the fullest while keeping the execution up (I'd argue V/M were more successful at that than D/W though D/W really pushed the rushed athletic side).
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
During what I like to call The Lawrence Welk Era (ie pre-Torvil and Dean's Bolero) this was a legitimate concern. But now, it's just churlishness. If P/C has ushered in the era of Modern Dance being acceptable, the Marlie/Voir era really accelerated the athletic side of ID. Think I'm kidding? Go back and look at the years between Bolero and the quad culminating in the Vancouver Olympics.

I don't think we should downplay the athleticism many teams displayed in-between Torvill/Dean's Bolero and the Canton teams in Vancouver.

Yes.

Lifts increased in difficult throughout the 1980s, 90s, and 2000s because ice dance rules started out very restrictive in what kinds of lifts were allowed, how high the man's hands could travel above his waist? then shoulders? then head?. They wanted to make sure that ice dancing did not look like pairs.

Ambitious teams pushed the boundaries of what was allowed at the time and sometimes suffered deductions. The ISU dance tech committee then decided to allow some moves that had previously been illegal. The top teams continued to push boundaries, and lift rules got loosened to allow even more options, then tightened again, and then codified under IJS where the rules for lift levels actively encouraged teams to display athetic lifts that would have been frowned on or actively penalized 20 years earlier.

So thank all the teams that pushed the boundaries of their times, and thank the less reactionary members of the ISU dance committee who opened up the restrictive lift rules.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
I don't think we should downplay the athleticism many teams displayed in-between Torvill/Dean's Bolero and the Canton teams in Vancouver. Many pre-IJS ice dance programs were full of difficult steps, displays of athleticism, pure body movement and actual dance, and pure intricacy and in closer holds than what we see now. I mean however you feel about Oksana Grishuk, I'm still in awe at her athleticism when I watch videos of Grishuk/Platov. I think when ice dance started to become more objective and more about individual elements (after 1998 or 1999) that's when it became something one could compare more with today's style of ice dance. That said, there's still a way ice dancers really paid attention to body movement and intricacy back then that most don't do now with some exceptions obviously. I think Meryl/Charlie and Scott/Tessa can be credited for taking the itemized elements and really pushing it to the fullest while keeping the execution up (I'd argue V/M were more successful at that than D/W though D/W really pushed the rushed athletic side).

Well that's true and I do agree with what you say... butI was exaggerating to prove a point. And I think the basic point is true: Marlie and Voir (there I go again!) really did lift the standards of athleticism in ice dance during their years competing.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

;)
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Yes.

Lifts increased in difficult throughout the 1980s, 90s, and 2000s because ice dance rules started out very restrictive in what kinds of lifts were allowed, how high the man's hands could travel above his waist? then shoulders? then head?. They wanted to make sure that ice dancing did not look like pairs.

Ambitious teams pushed the boundaries of what was allowed at the time and sometimes suffered deductions. The ISU dance tech committee then decided to allow some moves that had previously been illegal. The top teams continued to push boundaries, and lift rules got loosened to allow even more options, then tightened again, and then codified under IJS where the rules for lift levels actively encouraged teams to display athetic lifts that would have been frowned on or actively penalized 20 years earlier.

So thank all the teams that pushed the boundaries of their times, and thank the less reactionary members of the ISU dance committee who opened up the restrictive lift rules.

This too...

Big :agree:
 
Top