Understanding Virtue and Moir | Golden Skate

Understanding Virtue and Moir

Bord

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
I have watched skating for many many years - I am relatively knowledgeable. While I anticipate surprises during the Olympic season, I have also come to expect some "sure things" - and here is the issue.
I do not get Virtue and Moir. He appears to be perpetually scowling and angry - she does not have lithe -like quality of Gabrielle P. I watched their programs with and without music - I do not see or feel anything spectacular. Looking at their competition - Papadakis and Cizeron have a mystical quality, The Shibs have "like-ability" and Cappellini and Lanotte ooze warmth.

Explain what I am missing?
 

mrrice

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
I have watched skating for many many years - I am relatively knowledgeable. While I anticipate surprises during the Olympic season, I have also come to expect some "sure things" - and here is the issue.
I do not get Virtue and Moir. He appears to be perpetually scowling and angry - she does not have lithe -like quality of Gabrielle P. I watched their programs with and without music - I do not see or feel anything spectacular. Looking at their competition - Papadakis and Cizeron have a mystical quality, The Shibs have "like-ability" and Cappellini and Lanotte ooze warmth.

Explain what I am missing?

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh.......That's a BIG can of worms you just opened...I'm outta here:slink:

I'd suggest you look at their perfect posture and carriage. They also have perfect symmetry and their chemistry still has me convinced they'll end up getting married some day....;)

Also....have a look at their feet some time.....Spectacular. As for Scott's scowling and angry face, his expression goes with the program. Have a look at their Cheek to Cheek SD some time. He has a big smile because it's appropriate for the music and theme of the program. I'll find it.....Here's cheek to cheek.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NemNzTLizAg

So, to answer your question. NO! They are not overrated.
 

Ylyzybyth

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 28, 2017
Maybe it's because their names are fancy and memorable. Virtue and Moir, it could almost be a perfume name or fancy purse name or something.
I don't really watch ice dancing but I did catch a glimpse of that perfect program by Papadakis and Cizeron. I can't imagine anything better than that. But I'd be interested in knowing the opinion of others on this topic as well.
Great now I'm going to get into ice dance as well. My poor husband.
 

blackey

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 8, 2015
Just curiously, if you watched skating for that many years, what stop you from asking this question until now? They have been "overrated" for literally ten years now.
 

SkaterX

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 5, 2016
I'm a P/C fan myself but I can appreciate the skill and high-level choreography of V/M. Particularly the beginning of their FD this season when she jumps backwards directly onto him. Such an amazing way to start a program. Also, it doesn't hurt that Tessa has great style and I like her jewelry.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
I have watched skating for many many years - I am relatively knowledgeable. While I anticipate surprises during the Olympic season, I have also come to expect some "sure things" - and here is the issue.
I do not get Virtue and Moir. He appears to be perpetually scowling and angry - she does not have lithe -like quality of Gabrielle P. I watched their programs with and without music - I do not see or feel anything spectacular. Looking at their competition - Papadakis and Cizeron have a mystical quality, The Shibs have "like-ability" and Cappellini and Lanotte ooze warmth.

Explain what I am missing?

To answer the question in your thread title:

No, Virtue and Moir are not overrated.​

Tessa and Scott always make me feel emotion. They both exude the joy of skating -- and the joy of skating with each other. They make very difficult moves look effortless.
As I said in another thread, I want their programs never to end. The beauty of their skating makes me cry. For me, Tessa's qualities as a dancer are unsurpassed by any other female.

I like ice dance in general, and I do like other dance couples, esp. Hubbell and Donohue.
But I enjoy watching (and re-watching) Tessa and Scott the most, by far.


It just means you got a preference and Virtue and Moir don't fit it.

Well said.
 

Diok

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 11, 2017
The pretty ones always get pooped on. Tessa looks gorgeous on ice she makes other girls look like onions. She stands out like a sore thumb among female ice dancers and the team itself of Virtue & Moir are technical marvels in ice dancing.
Tessa and Scott are not overrated if anything underrated they don't get called the Queen and King of ice dance for nothing from international commentators not just canadians.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
Great now I'm going to get into ice dance as well. My poor husband.

Be prepared for the judging. It’s far more predictable than we see in singles and not always for the best IMO :scard7:
 

charlotte14

Medalist
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
I miss them in the old days, not the current though. The current V/M are good but I don't feel innovative.

But the current P/C are not innovative either.
 

Seren

Wakabond Forever
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
Skating is inherently subjective. V/M are not my favorite stylistically but they deserve their success. Just because I don't "get it" doesn't mean I can't appreciate how other people do.

Honestly, I have been pretty negative about ice dance lately because it seemed like the way things were going the judges might as well gift V/M the OG now. Now that it seems like it's turning into more of a competition again I find myself appreciating V/M more.
 

Barb

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
I have watched skating for many many years - I am relatively knowledgeable. While I anticipate surprises during the Olympic season, I have also come to expect some "sure things" - and here is the issue.
I do not get Virtue and Moir. He appears to be perpetually scowling and angry - she does not have lithe -like quality of Gabrielle P. I watched their programs with and without music - I do not see or feel anything spectacular. Looking at their competition - Papadakis and Cizeron have a mystical quality, The Shibs have "like-ability" and Cappellini and Lanotte ooze warmth.

Explain what I am missing?

I recommend you at least one time looking only at the skates in super slow motion and what they do with them, you will get a surprise, when I did it (with the top 8), I realized that there are indeed some overrated teams, but V/M is not one of those teams.
 

Grets

Spectator
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
I have to agree with you, Bord. I don't feel anything when I watch Tessa and Scott, either. Yes, he does look like he's in a bad mood most of the time, and her over-emoting is too much for my tastes. I'm not saying that they aren't good--they are. However, I really don't think they have any more talent than most of the other top teams. And in my opinion, they have been vastly overscored since returning to competition last year.
 

randomsplashes

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 20, 2017
It's fine having your own preference. But I think V/M's impeccable dance (particularly Tessa) and skating skills, musicality and versatility speaks for itself, after all they didn't just win several Olympic medals by being overrated. I don't think you need to be knowledgeable about ice dance to see that.
 

magicrider

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
How can anyone suggest that Scott Moir’s deep intensity and focus could be defined as a bad mood! No other team has ever thrilled me to the core as Virtue and Moir have. I also appreciate their ability to skate successfully in so many styles. PC are lyrically lovely, but they do not move me deeply. As well, they do not dance to a great variety of styles. All in all, I suppose that we should all agree to disagree, because our opinions are only that- opinions.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
V/M are able to skate with incredible intricacy and difficulty while making it look effortless and easy. Just watch the amount of content that they do compared to every other team, and you'll see what makes V/M special. You should also watch their programs from 2007-2010 in comparison to their competition at the time, and you'll get why they rocked the ice dance world. Against a team like D/W, even when Tessa wasn't at her healthiest, they managed to have the posture, line, ease, and content most teams could only dream of. Scott may not have the upper-body movement and image of Guillaume but his athleticism and what he does below the knees is incredible. I'd argue Gabriella is instrumental to P/C's success as she's the one that really draws me in, but objectively, outside of the emotional response I get from her, I do think objectively, there's a slew of stronger female ice dancers currently competing against her with Tessa seriously being in front of that line as I think she's one of the best of all time.

Now, P/C may have rocked the ice dance world with their particular ethereal and at times avant garde (last season's FD) approach to ice dance and I do prefer their Moonlight Sonata and last year's FD (where I was almost that crying woman in the audience at 2017 Worlds after P/C's almost literally breathtaking FD performance) over V/M's last two FDs in terms of musicality, sophistication, nuances hand/arm movement, art, and emotion, but I can't deny that on an objective level, V/M do so much more and have more difficulty and complexity than what every other ice dance team is attempting. I'm not saying they deserve to win because of that, but it's a marvel to observe. P/C's program is really simple in comparison even if what they do looks picture perfect (I'd argue that people get swept up in the way they move they ignore parts of serious uncleanliness like with Gabriella's pitch forward posture and the way they two-footed their way through the Ravensburger pattern or how their turns aren't as clean as the lenient callers want us to believe with Gabi often times falling uncleanly back into hold to rush to catch up with Guillaume, etc.). I'd even argue P/C's Moonlight Sonata is less complex overall than Hubbell/Donohue's and the Shibs' FDs. I would usually add Weaver/Poje had they done a program like "Maria de Buenos Aires" or their 2015 or 2016 FD but their "Je Suis Malade" is much more open and simple than their later programs.

I think what the OP's post is really about is personal preference, which is fair as they don't emotionally get V/M (but I would seriously recommend watching their early senior programs and in context) and I personally think their SD this season is a total miss artistically-speaking while they're ramping it up a bit too much in their FD and trying too hard at certain times, but today's V/M leaves me in awe with their technical content, which IMO, is artistry in of itself because part of artistry in dance is the actual dance outside the performance of it.
 

Anyasnake

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 28, 2016
V/M are able to skate with incredible intricacy and difficulty while making it look effortless and easy. Just watch the amount of content that they do compared to every other team, and you'll see what makes V/M special. You should also watch their programs from 2007-2010 in comparison to their competition at the time, and you'll get why they rocked the ice dance world. Against a team like D/W, even when Tessa wasn't at her healthiest, they managed to have the posture, line, ease, and content most teams could only dream of. Scott may not have the upper-body movement and image of Guillaume but his athleticism and what he does below the knees is incredible. I'd argue Gabriella is instrumental to P/C's success as she's the one that really draws me in, but objectively, outside of the emotional response I get from her, I do think objectively, there's a slew of stronger female ice dancers currently competing against her with Tessa seriously being in front of that line as I think she's one of the best of all time.

Now, P/C may have rocked the ice dance world with their particular ethereal and at times avant garde (last season's FD) approach to ice dance and I do prefer their Moonlight Sonata and last year's FD (where I was almost that crying woman in the audience at 2017 Worlds after P/C's almost literally breathtaking FD performance) over V/M's last two FDs in terms of musicality, sophistication, nuances hand/arm movement, art, and emotion, but I can't deny that on an objective level, V/M do so much more and have more difficulty and complexity than what every other ice dance team is attempting. I'm not saying they deserve to win because of that, but it's a marvel to observe. P/C's program is really simple in comparison even if what they do looks picture perfect (I'd argue that people get swept up in the way they move they ignore parts of serious uncleanliness like with Gabriella's pitch forward posture and the way they two-footed their way through the Ravensburger pattern or how their turns aren't as clean as the lenient callers want us to believe with Gabi often times falling uncleanly back into hold to rush to catch up with Guillaume, etc.). I'd even argue P/C's Moonlight Sonata is less complex overall than Hubbell/Donohue's and the Shibs' FDs. I would usually add Weaver/Poje had they done a program like "Maria de Buenos Aires" or their 2015 or 2016 FD but their "Je Suis Malade" is much more open and simple than their later programs.

I think what the OP's post is really about is personal preference, which is fair as they don't emotionally get V/M (but I would seriously recommend watching their early senior programs and in context) and I personally think their SD this season is a total miss artistically-speaking while they're ramping it up a bit too much in their FD and trying too hard at certain times, but today's V/M leaves me in awe with their technical content, which IMO, is artistry in of itself because part of artistry in dance is the actual dance outside the performance of it.

I'd agree on V/M being technically brilliant. There is no doubt about that, and you may get all the feelings or not, that's another story far more subjective.

However, I will very much disagree with P/C FD being less complex than H/D or Shibs. I do think they make it look very easy but it's not. First, Marie-France isn't going to give them a program technically inferior since she wants them at least to get the silver, and I'd also disagree about the unclean turns. I actually think the step sequences in the FD are one of their strongest point because it draws you in with their very long lines.
You know, H/D have tremendously improved too to a point where, this weekend, people were saying thay their steps in the FD looks easier than others. It is not easier however they make it look so easy. I've noticed that too with Chock/Bates and even with Shibs in their FD : I was looking at the step sequences and thinking : "either it's easier than before, or they did gain a lot more flow", and after rewatching it looking only at the feet (I advise anyone to do that because it might help you get the difference between one team or the other), you just notice how much they have been working on this, it's more and more seamless. It just striked me in C/B's FD.

Another point I'd agree on : Every program is much more open since the 2014 season because I think the rules changed a lot. There is much more freedom with dance holds for example (you don't have to stay in holds everytime). I know some of you prefered it before... I personally enjoy the freedom much more :agree: But this is also why the top 2 teams are making far more mistakes than what you'd expect, because they move their upper bodies a lot and the abandon is there too... sometimes you might get caught up too much in the acting/emotions and then, kaboom, twizzle down. :drama:

To go back to V/M :
it's a question of style if you like/get them (you might get emotionally shook by a team that ranked #1 or #14 and that's very normal). Usually the casual viewer like them, because it's strong and powerful , yet so well executed. "Impressive" comes to mind, and it shows very well in the both the SD and FD.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Just curiously, if you watched skating for that many years, what stop you from asking this question until now? They have been "overrated" for literally ten years now.

To my taste, Virtue and Moir hit their peak in 2010. It was so much fun to watch their trajectory form 2007 to the 2010 Olympics. They may have improved in subtle ways since that time, but IMHO there is nothing like youthful exuberance and confidence.
 
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