Understanding Virtue and Moir

danse · Nov 15, 2017

Some people like chocolate. Some people prefer vanilla. Both are fantastic options, but you can like both, one or the other, or neither.
Some people like Scott and Tessa. Some people prefer Gabby & Guillaume. Both are fantastic options, but you can like both, you can like one or the other or neither.

I like both for different reasons, but I look forward to seeing Tessa and Scott more.

I think had Scott and Tessa not returned to competition, my love for ice dance wouldn't be as strong. That being said, I adore Madison Hubbell and Zach Donahue's programs this year, along with quite a few others. And I love watching Gabby and Guillaume.

all that · Nov 15, 2017

ChanClan said:
I'm not entirely sure that the writing is in stone yet. VM got lvl3's on their step sequences at SCI and a lvl3 and lvl4 at NHK and are still scoring 117. Once they've worked out how to get all lvl4's and don't make silly bobbles, they'll score higher. I think it's a little naive/ignorant to say that the winner of GPF and the Olympics has already been decided based on the scores, scores that are extremely close. Anything can happen, and it'll depend on who decides to show up and deliver two solid performances.

It will be set in stone this weekend. Ready to bet a very large sum that P/C will score 120+ with the FD this weekend. It will be very hard for V/M to overcome that, especially if they only have 1 level 3 and everything is already at a 4. It's a PCS thing, and by this point in the season, the judges have basically already decided what PCS will be given to each team. V/M just won't get enough PCS to overcome the gap that will occur in the FD scores, even if they lead after the SD.

Manitou · Nov 15, 2017

It's sport, not a popularity contest.
But as far as popularity goes, I agree, they are not really likable. Scott has shown his arrogant attitude several times, he appears to be all full of himself and entitled to his position. Again: he "appears", which doesn't have to mean: "he is". But that appearance is how I judge him. So maybe he simply doesn't have good PR skills.
I like Tessa, she appears to be a nice woman and a competitive athlete, not mentioning being incredible in what she is doing. But Scott is the one who makes me never rooting for them.

All three top Russian couples: S/K, B/S, S/B, are very likable, but W/P are probably the most likable. And, of course, P/C are the true "artistes", so you cannot be indifferent to them. And Guillaume is simply magnetic. I usually look at the woman in dances, but Guillaume is probably the only exception. He is not artistic, he is the Art itself.

ChanClan · Nov 15, 2017

all that said:
It will be set in stone this weekend. Ready to bet a very large sum that P/C will score 120+ with the FD this weekend. It will be very hard for V/M to overcome that, especially if they only have 1 level 3 and everything is already at a 4. It's a PCS thing, and by this point in the season, the judges have basically already decided what PCS will be given to each team. V/M just won't get enough PCS to overcome the gap that will occur in the FD scores, even if they lead after the SD.

again, I don't think anything is set in stone. You can't really compare scores across different competitions because the panel of judges are different. TES is probably the only thing that you can really compare across different competitions but it's still a different panel of judges. The only real comparison is when they compete at the same competitions, so GPF and Olympics.

If we are to compare scores fine. VM got an 82.68 at SCI in the SD, PC got an 81.10 at COC. That's 1.58 difference. PC had a lvl3 while VM had all lvl4. VM got 117.72 at NHK in the FD, PC got 119.33 at COC. That is a 1.61 difference. PC had all lvl4 and VM had one lvl3. Do you see how small the differences are? This isn't set in stone. It probably won't even be if PC score over 120 in France because they aren't actually competing against each other until GPF. Even if PC win at GPF, it's not set in stone. Look at the last 2 Olympics. In 2010, VM lost GPF, but won the Olympics. In 2014, VM lost GPF, and got silver at the Olympics. So no, I don't think anything is set in stone until the final scores at the Olympics are announced.

[edit] I was wrong, PC also had a lvl3 in their FD at COC. point still stands tho.
Also... if you actually looked at their PCS, you'd know VM had better PCS in their FD at SCI than PC did at COC.

all that · Nov 15, 2017

ChanClan said:
Also... if you actually looked at their PCS, you'd know VM had better PCS in their FD at SCI than PC did at COC.

I did, and P/C will have better PCS when they compete at home this weekend just like V/M did at SCI. Ice dance judging is more set in stone than any other discipline, because there aren't many falls and judges make subjective decisions about which programs they like better. That's just how this sport works. And once they decide where a team's PCS are going to be, and who they'll slot in behind, that's where they'll stay. Levels are where you can make the most difference, but if you're already pretty much maxing out, there's no where to really go. A full point behind in PCS is almost impossible to make up, and even if you switch panels, you're not going to see huge swings in PCS.

I know this all sounds hypothetical now, but it will all become obvious after this weekend. I've just been in this game long enough to see it ahead of time, but you will see it yourself soon enough.

ChanClan · Nov 15, 2017

all that said:
I did, and P/C will have better PCS when they compete at home this weekend just like V/M did at SCI. Ice dance judging is more set in stone than any other discipline, because there aren't many falls and judges make subjective decisions about which programs they like better. That's just how this sport works. And once they decide where a team's PCS are going to be, and who they'll slot in behind, that's where they'll stay. Levels are where you can make the most difference, but if you're already pretty much maxing out, there's no where to really go. A full point behind in PCS is almost impossible to make up, and even if you switch panels, you're not going to see huge swings in PCS.

I know this all sounds hypothetical now, but it will all become obvious after this weekend. I've just been in this game long enough to see it ahead of time, but you will see it yourself soon enough.

then I guess we will have to agree to disagree. You think things are set in stone with the scores being super tight, I do not. I don't think scores from different competitions are comparable, apparently (i think? not entirely clear) you do. Until they've competed against each other at the same competition with the same panel of judges, scores can't be properly compared. If PC do end up winning GPF and the Olympics, I say good for them, they deserved it, but I don't think, nor will I ever think that a true Olympic sport should have their champion decided before hand.

Viiktoruu · Nov 15, 2017

all that said:
It will be set in stone this weekend. Ready to bet a very large sum that P/C will score 120+ with the FD this weekend. It will be very hard for V/M to overcome that, especially if they only have 1 level 3 and everything is already at a 4. It's a PCS thing, and by this point in the season, the judges have basically already decided what PCS will be given to each team. V/M just won't get enough PCS to overcome the gap that will occur in the FD scores, even if they lead after the SD.

I fear this is the case as well (regarding the FD). And it's obvious P/C are truly brilliant, and that it's easier to understand and like their program. A judge not knowing the Moulin Rouge story might find the Roxanne part somehow confusing, and hold back with the PCS, whereas this can't be the case with P/C's classical music. But their short, IMO, doesn't come close to V/M's and somehow they got about the same PCS (even higher when comparing to NHK scores) - so I feel like the judges kinda already made up their mind. :eek:

hwell:

Viiktoruu · Nov 15, 2017

WeakAnkles said:
ChanClan said:

It just means you got a preference and Virtue and Moir don't fit it.

Click to expand...

That about sums it up.

De gustibus non est disputandum.

We went through the same thing last quad with the Marlie vs Voir nonsense.

Frankly it's tedious.

You can't argue taste. Not every skater or skating team is going to appeal to you.

My Mom is a devout Irish Catholic and lives in an area filled with proselytizing born again Christians. My Mom is fine with them until they start criticizing her religion. Why? "If the only way you can say what you believe is better is by knocking everyone and everything that doesn't agree with you, it doesn't say much for your belief."

Mom is a very wise woman.

^I love this :laugh:

all that · Nov 15, 2017

Viiktoruu said:
I fear this is the case as well (regarding the FD). And it's obvious P/C are truly brilliant, and that it's easier to understand and like their program. A judge not knowing the Moulin Rouge story might find the Roxanne part somehow confusing, and hold back with the PCS, whereas this can't be the case with P/C's classical music. But their short, IMO, doesn't come close to V/M's and somehow they got about the same PCS (even higher when comparing to NHK scores) - so I feel like the judges kinda already made up their mind. hwell:

Every judge knows Moulin Rouge. It's one of the most overdone pieces of music in skating ever. It's just that P/C are better skaters than V/M. Last year they didn't get credit for it to set up a fake rivalry. This year they're getting properly scored. That's all this is.

all that · Nov 15, 2017

ChanClan said:
then I guess we will have to agree to disagree. You think things are set in stone with the scores being super tight, I do not. I don't think scores from different competitions are comparable, apparently (i think? not entirely clear) you do. Until they've competed against each other at the same competition with the same panel of judges, scores can't be properly compared. If PC do end up winning GPF and the Olympics, I say good for them, they deserved it, but I don't think, nor will I ever think that a true Olympic sport should have their champion decided before hand.

Now whether ice dance is a true Olympic sport is a different discussion entirely! However, it's always been this way, and somehow has yet to be cut from the Olympics. I don't think scores from different competitions are comparable, but (especially when it comes to PCS), they don't typically change much, so they are a good indicator. It's what people call "momentum", though if this were a real sport, there would be no "momentum" because every competition should be judged based on what is actually put on the ice that day, not what has happened before. But that's just how this is and that will never change.

Viiktoruu · Nov 15, 2017

all that said:
Every judge knows Moulin Rouge. It's one of the most overdone pieces of music in skating ever.

Well... It is but maybe some didn't see or like the movie so aren't entirely objective? I mean IDK - when their PCS is barely 1 point apart even this factor might make a difference.

all that said:
It's just that P/C are better skaters than V/M. Last year they didn't get credit for it to set up a fake rivalry. This year they're getting properly scored. That's all this is.

If you say so.

I won't disagree that from the technical point of view, P/C really are ahead of V/M right now. However, if we're discussing the PCS (which was my point, disregarding any conspiracy theories) - I personally can't see how they'd be ahead of V/M.

And this might be because I hate Shape of You - so maybe if someone hates Moulin Rouge .... ?

ice coverage · Nov 15, 2017

all that said:
... That's just how this sport works. And once they decide where a team's PCS are going to be, and who they'll slot in behind, that's where they'll stay. ...

Except that is not how ice dance worked in 2009-10.

FD PCS at 2009 GPF (where D/W won gold, as ChanClan said):

V/M 52.51

D/W 53.14

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf0910/SEG016.HTM

FD PCS at 2010 OWG

V/M 57.32

D/W 55.39

http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/SEG009.HTM

sarama · Nov 15, 2017

Well, if you don't connect with them while they skate, or you don't like their programs, that's fine. It's absolutely subjective, and nobody can really make you change your mind.

As many said though, try to watch one of their programs and only look at them from the waist down (you can do it easily scrolling down on Youtube). Even better if you pick a program from the Marina era. Their edges, their unison, the way they match in technique and lines, how close they skate....uncanny. That's what really sets them apart.

Regarding the comeback discussion... I think they really were stressed out in their last two seasons with Marina, and I don't think she was the problem. They looked overwhelmed by the whole situation, and probably didn't enjoy themselves as much they should have. They looked at peace in Sochi, but the whole year and a half earlier was a struggle. While away from the sport they probably found a renewed love for it, and a new perspective. I'm sure they want to win, but it also look like they are simply enjoying competing, training and the love of the fans. I see nothing wrong with that. And despite having cheapened their skating a bit, they have greatly improved their musicality during the comeback, so I'm glad they took this opportunity and explored a more dance-focused approach to their skating

all that · Nov 15, 2017

ice coverage said:
Except that is not how ice dance worked in 2009-10.

FD PCS at 2009 GPF (where D/W won gold, as ChanClan said):

V/M 52.51

D/W 53.14

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf0910/SEG016.HTM

FD PCS at 2010 OWG

V/M 57.32

D/W 55.39

http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/SEG009.HTM

That was a situation where you had two young teams that were basically equal, and the Olympics was in the home country of one of them, which causes a whole other drama which luckily is avoided this year!

ETA: There's also the fact that the US Fed put their poltical power behind Lysacek for Mens gold in 2010. When the politiked D/W in 2014, we saw the results.

all that · Nov 15, 2017

sarama said:
And despite having cheapened their skating a bit, they have greatly improved their musicality during the comeback, so I'm glad they took this opportunity and explored a more dance-focused approach to their skating

This is one place where I do have to disagree. V/M have always taken a dance-focused approach to their skating. It's why their SDs are generally so good, and how they created programs like Carmen, their Latin FD, and Pink Floyd (which even P/C liked). They did suffer through a lot of injuries so I think they weren't able to compete to the best of their ability between 2010-2014, which is probably what prompted the comeback (among other reasons they have stated).

ice coverage · Nov 15, 2017

all that said:
... That's just how this sport works. And once they decide where a team's PCS are going to be, and who they'll slot in behind, that's where they'll stay. ...

all that said:
That was a situation where you had two young teams that were basically equal, and the Olympics was in the home country of one of them, which causes a whole other drama which luckily is avoided this year!

But the point to me is that nothing is written in stone -- in this season or any other season.

Another counter-example to "that's where they'll stay:"

Some people were absolutely certain that D/W were going to win gold at 2012 Worlds in Nice (which was home country neither for D/W nor V/M).
Did not happen.

FD PCS at 2011 GPF (in Quebec), where D/W won gold:

V/M 57.68

D/W 57.95

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1112/SEG008.HTM

FD PCS at 2012 Worlds, where V/M won gold:

V/M 57.56

D/W 56.71

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2012/SEG012.HTM

ChanClan · Nov 15, 2017

I guess I'm just an optimist. I like to believe that the winner will not be decided until both have competed at the same competition. And each competition is different, things happen, people make mistakes, judges are different. I think it all depends on who shows up and delivers on that given day and who the judges are.

all that · Nov 15, 2017

ChanClan said:
I guess I'm just an optimist. I like to believe that the winner will not be decided until both have competed at the same competition. And each competition is different, things happen, people make mistakes, judges are different. I think it all depends on who shows up and delivers on that given day and who the judges are.

Bet V/M are hoping the Technical Specialist at the Olympics won't be Shawn Rettstatt!

Diok · Nov 15, 2017

So if its set in stone then why hold the event. In my opinion virtue and Moir should be ahead by 2-3pts after the SD if everything was legit. The 2 SD aren't in the same league. What a horrible sport.

Purv · Nov 15, 2017

ChanClan said:
I'm not entirely sure that the writing is in stone yet. VM got lvl3's on their step sequences at SCI and a lvl3 and lvl4 at NHK and are still scoring 117. Once they've worked out how to get all lvl4's and don't make silly bobbles, they'll score higher. I think it's a little naive/ignorant to say that the winner of GPF and the Olympics has already been decided based on the scores, scores that are extremely close. Anything can happen, and it'll depend on who decides to show up and deliver two solid performances.

they score higher??yeah , french with with one level3 and one 4 gets over 119, canadians with the same level ,one 3 and one 4 gets 117 so???? so french when they get two levels4 will score almost 121, v/m 119 +

Understanding Virtue and Moir

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Viiktoruu

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