Wagner's pain not limited to Olympic years

samkrut@mail.ru · Nov 21, 2017

Moxiejan said:
The problem, as I stated, was that "propaganda" was not clearly defined and that anything perceived to be pro-gay (such as wearing multi-colored clothes that could be considered rainbow symbols) could have been subject to an athlete being arrested, detain, fined.

Note that the law doesn't make "propaganda of traditional sexual relations to minors" a crime (never mind that ANY sharing of such info with minors in inappropriate, except by parents & authorized professionals). It only targets "non-traditional." As such, it indeed is anti-gay.

As for gay athletes' safety: As you said, there indeed were publicized cases of court cases against those with "non-traditional" orientation. Since the law & the fines started in 2013 (the year leading up to Sochi), how could that NOT be viewed as a threat/warning to those planning to visit Russia?

It is all "could have"s. And of course, the power of these "could have"s depends solely on the media. Nothing happened in Sochi. The only reported case was of some Italian activist who tried to arrange some sort of protest and was detained for several hours. That's it. So it was much a do about nothing all the way through. There was political attack on Russia and LGBT was the most convenient vehicle as racism and women's oppression would be even more difficult to pursue.

Russia has the World Cup 2018. Why is there nothing like a pre Sochi hysteria about LGBT rights violation now? Because there appeared much "hotter" topics since then: "Russia as a threat to the world" and "Russia as the land of dopers". And in fact nothing changed in the overall LGBT situation, neither pre-Sochi nor now.

Sjs5572 · Nov 21, 2017

Moxiejan said:
The problem, as I stated, was that "propaganda" was not clearly defined and that anything perceived to be pro-gay (such as wearing multi-colored clothes that could be considered rainbow symbols) could have been subject to an athlete being arrested, detain, fined.

Note that the law doesn't make "propaganda of traditional sexual relations to minors" a crime (never mind that ANY sharing of such info with minors in inappropriate, except by parents & authorized professionals). It only targets "non-traditional." As such, it indeed is anti-gay.

As for gay athletes' safety: As you said, there indeed were publicized cases of court cases against those with "non-traditional" orientation. Since the law & the fines started in 2013 (the year leading up to Sochi), how could that NOT be viewed as a threat/warning to those planning to visit Russia?

Additionally, don't forget that this law gives tacit approval to nationalist hooligans to entrap and rob/assault gays with impunity.

Manitou · Nov 21, 2017

Moxiejan said:
Perhaps she will, if ever participating at a competition in one of them.

I doubt she will have guts to do that there. It was quite safe to speak up against Russia's laws, but the same might be "a bit" less safe in those countries.
The courage is easy if it costs nothing, you see...
But I guess we will never find out, as figure skating is even forbidden in some of those countries. Unless women decide to skate in burkas.

jenaj · Nov 21, 2017

Nigel said:
Sorry....I have to say something ....as much as I give Wagner credit for sticking it out all these years, the "diva factor" rises to the top when she needs to build herself up. Do we really think she has the goods to go up against the top Russian ladies ( or Kostner....who, yes, still needs to up the ante technically, but choreographically, her programs are stunning this season) I don't care that Wagner talks about old injuries. The Olympics are about bringing it to the ice. IF she is going to go for a medal this year, then put it out there. No excuses ...old or new. The skating HAS to speak for itself. Technically and choreographically. This is a competition. Not a coronation.

The answer to your question is yes, she can beat the Russian ladies--or Kostner. They have to skate clean, too, to win and we know that, at the Olympics, things rarely turn out exactly as predicted. I'm thinking of the men's event at Sochi. Did anyone predict Denis Ten would win a bronze medal? So you never know. Ashley has two of the best programs of the season, even if they are repeats. She can score high on the second mark, even without a completely clean skate. So I wouldn't count Ashley out of the medals. Let's see how she does this weekend against Polina T.

Sjs5572 · Nov 21, 2017

Manitou said:
I doubt she will have guts to do that there. It was quite safe to speak up against Russia's laws, but the same might be "a bit" less safe in those countries.
The courage is easy if it costs nothing, you see...
But I guess we will never find out, as figure skating is even forbidden in some of those countries. Unless women decide to skate in burkas.

Yep. Russia is better than Saudi Arabia and Trump is better than Manson. We have finished our moral relativity lesson for the day.

luckyguy · Nov 21, 2017

If Ashley wants to do really something positive, she can do it at home in the U.S..

She should fight against conversion therapy for minors on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity. This pseudoscientific practice of trying to change an individual's sexual orientation using psychological or spiritual interventions is banned only in 9 U.S. states!

gravy · Nov 21, 2017

[email protected] said:
Russia has the World Cup 2018. Why is there nothing like a pre Sochi hysteria about LGBT rights violation now? Because there appeared much "hotter" topics since then: "Russia as a threat to the world" and "Russia as the land of dopers". And in fact nothing changed in the overall LGBT situation, neither pre-Sochi nor now.

It's not hysteria; it's a valid concern and it's in the media now--I suggest you take a peep at some non-censored news outlets. And I'll tell you that the closer we get to the World Cup in the summer, the more you'll hear about it for sure.

And you say nothing has changed at all? I'm sure the gays of Chechyna would disagree about how great they've been treated this year. Just because there isn't a public law against homosexuality itself doesn't mean the Russian government isn't being draconian in their treatment of homosexuals.

luckyguy · Nov 21, 2017

Missing Gay Chechen refugee resurfaces months later to apologise on TV for ‘disgracing’ the public.
http://attitude.co.uk/missing-gay-c...to-apologise-on-tv-for-disgracing-the-public/

mrrice · Nov 21, 2017

luckyguy said:
Missing Gay Chechen refugee resurfaces months later to apologise on TV for ‘disgracing’ the public.
http://attitude.co.uk/missing-gay-c...to-apologise-on-tv-for-disgracing-the-public/

Stories like this break my heart. The more I read them, the more I appreciate the dancers and people I met in Russia. Clearly, I was shielded by the people I met because all I remember are sweet and giving people. I will NEVER forget our "host dad" for making borscht With meatballs and getting us drunk on Russian Vodka. It's been more than 2 decades but, when I close my eyes, I see only happy times and loving people.

gravy · Nov 21, 2017

luckyguy said:
Missing Gay Chechen refugee resurfaces months later to apologise on TV for ‘disgracing’ the public.
http://attitude.co.uk/missing-gay-c...to-apologise-on-tv-for-disgracing-the-public/

There's literally a link to another article by the same publication at the end talking about a gay Russian singer who was tortured to death in Chechnya. If you wanted to use this as proof that the Chechen gay purge is fake news, you failed miserably.

luckyguy · Nov 21, 2017

gravy said:
There's literally a link to another article by the same publication at the end talking about a Russian singer who was REPORTEDLY tortured to death in Chechnya. If you wanted to use this as proof that the Chechen gay purge is fake news, you failed miserably.

Please be correct: "sources now believe". It would be terrible, if he is really dead and the claims made by Igor Kocketkov about torture in this Muslim part of the Russian Federation turn out to be true.

gravy · Nov 21, 2017

luckyguy said:
Please be correct: "sources now believe". It would be terrible, if he is really dead and the claims made by Igor Kocketkov about torture in this Muslim part of the Russian Federation turn out to be true.

If you bothered to read any actual media outlets and not rely on British lifestyle magazines to get your news, you'd know that this isn't a "what if" scenario but rather a verifiable "it happened" incident. If you believe otherwise, you've been subjugating yourself to propaganda or are just merely disagreeing for the fun of it. You're free to look up news in a non-censored search engine if you wish, but I'm not really interested in trying to convince someone the sky is blue when they say it's green. Facts are facts and this is an undeniable thing that happened.

Finally, don't try and deflect this homophobic sentiment solely on the Islamic faith. Homophobia and their resulting hate crimes continue to be a huge problem in the entirety of Russia--not just Chechnya.

samkrut@mail.ru · Nov 21, 2017

gravy said:
Finally, don't try and deflect this homophobic sentiment solely on the Islamic faith. Homophobia and their resulting hate crimes continue to be a huge problem in the entirety of Russia--not just Chechnya.

Any proofs to that "sensational" statement? And not some fake news. Are there hate crimes in Russia against gays? Sure, there should be as there are homophobes in Russia. Are those crimes supported by the Russian government? No, whoever claims that has no proof but has a certain agenda. Also it is nothing but an allegation that crimes against gays are a huge problem when huge is measured as a percentage of the total number of crimes. Are there hate crimes in the USA against gays? Sure, there should be as there are homophobes in the USA. so, what's the point?

Now Chechnya. It is complicated. Russian federal government should be responsible for what happens there. But in fact, it cannot. It has become culturally independent. But what we have now is still much better than the state of war during the 90s when thousands of people were killed. And what is the solution - to let Chechnya free and get what, another Afganistan? No, thank you.

luckyguy · Nov 21, 2017

Gravy,

apparently you are not aware that Attitude is a leading gay magazine in the UK. :luv17: So much to your "knowledge".

And if you fantasize about sentiments. I see only one sentiment in your statements: an anti-Russian sentiment.

gravy · Nov 21, 2017

[email protected] said:
Any proofs to that "sensational" statement? And not some fake news. Are there hate crimes in Russia against gays? Sure, there should be as there are homophobes in Russia. Are those crimes supported by the Russian government? No, whoever claims that has no proof but has a certain agenda. Also it is nothing but an allegation that crimes against gays are a huge problem when huge is measured as a percentage of the total number of crimes. Are there hate crimes in the USA against gays? Sure, there should be as there are homophobes in the USA. so, what's the point?

Now Chechnya. It is complicated. Russian federal government should be responsible for what happens there. But in fact, it cannot. It has become culturally independent. But what we have now is still much better than the state of war during the 90s when thousands of people were killed. And what is the solution - to let Chechnya free and get what, another Afganistan? No, thank you.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...sia-after-ban-on-gay-propaganda-idUSKBN1DL2FM

https://www.hrw.org/report/2014/12/...ment-against-lgbt-people-and-activists-russia

Now I'm not say the government is sending out militias around Russia to round up gay people like in Chechnya but by failing to prosecute perpetrators of these hate crimes or holding them accountable, the Russian government remains complicit in allowing a culture of homophobic assaults to become ordinary. Feel free to look up some more articles about this problem; surely you'll find one from a media outlet that you don't consider fake news. The difference between the US and Russia is that the former doesn't have federal laws in place that legalize discrimination against homosexuals. Phrase it however you want but banning homosexual propaganda to minors is discrimination; otherwise why not include heterosexual propaganda as well? That's the point here; it's a problem visible in the upper echelons of the government which isn't the case in other countries.

gravy · Nov 21, 2017

luckyguy said:
Gravy,

apparently you are not aware that Attitude is a leading gay magazine in the UK. :luv17: So much to your "knowledge".

And if you fantasize about sentiments. I see only one sentiment in your statements: an anti-Russian sentiment.

If the reasoning behind your post is reiterate that Attitude is indeed reputable, I'm not sure you've done yourself any favors (again). I hope you realize that the article you posted: 1) acknowledges that the Chechen camps exist and 2) implied that the guy in question was most likely forced to lie and apologize about being held captive to protect his family. Now if you don't agree with those sentiments, then I suggest you proofread better in the future to avoid posting something that works against the point you're trying to make since these clearly do not align with what you've been spouting.

samkrut@mail.ru · Nov 21, 2017

gravy said:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...sia-after-ban-on-gay-propaganda-idUSKBN1DL2FM

https://www.hrw.org/report/2014/12/...ment-against-lgbt-people-and-activists-russia

Now I'm not say the government is sending out militias around Russia to round up gay people like in Chechnya but by failing to prosecute perpetrators of these hate crimes or holding them accountable, the Russian government remains complicit in allowing a culture of homophobic assaults to become ordinary. Feel free to look up some more articles about this problem; surely you'll find one from a media outlet that you don't consider fake news. The difference between the US and Russia is that the former doesn't have federal laws in place that legalize discrimination against homosexuals. Phrase it however you want but banning homosexual propaganda to minors is discrimination; otherwise why not include heterosexual propaganda as well? That's the point here; it's a problem visible in the upper echelons of the government which isn't the case in other countries.

I don't want to argue anymore. In fact, I agree that the law is stupid. It served as one of the vehicles to increase the rankings of the power as overall Russian folks support conservative sentiments as opposed to "perversions of the West". There are many other vehicles to promote this conservatism like the support of Russian orthodox church. There was a big outcry when the famous Isakiev Cathedral that served as the municipal museum for decades was given back to church last year.

The actual implications of this law are none. Only 4 people were fined in the first 2 years after the law was adopted out of how many millions of LGBT people in Russia? Once again much a do about nothing but a good excuse for russophobes. And one more time, the law is stupid. And I don't agree with what is going on in Chechnya but the discussion about it is beyond the scope of a figure skating board.

I am done and will not reply any more.

Mawwerg · Nov 21, 2017

Good statement. I don't think Wagner demons have any relations with Chechnya.

gravy · Nov 21, 2017

[email protected] said:
I don't want to argue anymore. In fact, I agree that the law is stupid. It served as one of the vehicles to increase the rankings of the power as overall Russian folks support conservative sentiments as opposed to "perversions of the West". There are many other vehicles to promote this conservatism like the support of Russian orthodox church. There was a big outcry when the famous Isakiev Cathedral that served as the municipal museum for decades was given back to church last year.

The actual implications of this law are none. Only 4 people were fined in the first 2 years after the law was adopted out of how many millions of LGBT people in Russia? Once again much a do about nothing but a good excuse for russophobes. And one more time, the law is stupid. And I don't agree with what is going on in Chechnya but the discussion about it is beyond the scope of a figure skating board.

I am done and will not reply any more.

Fair enough. I appreciate the thought-out responses.

luckyguy · Nov 21, 2017

gravy said:
If the reasoning behind your post is reiterate that Attitude is indeed reputable, I'm not sure you've done yourself any favors (again). I hope you realize that the article you posted: 1) acknowledges that the Chechen camps exist and 2) implied that the guy in question was most likely forced to lie and apologize about being held captive to protect his family. Now if you don't agree with those sentiments, then I suggest you proofread better in the future to avoid posting something that works against the point you're trying to make since these clearly do not align with what you've been spouting.

1. Yes, regarding gay themes are the Attitude-News reputable.
2. I did not comment the article I posted here. You fantasize again about my motivation.
3. Present us the FACTS about the death of Zelimkhan Bakaev.

Then we can return to Ashley.

Wagner's pain not limited to Olympic years

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