Acquisition of Skills - averages | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Acquisition of Skills - averages

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I was trying to ask 'How many hours should someone invest into figure skating to determine if there's really something there?'
And the reason I ask this is because it seems pretty obvious that the only way my kid is going to be successful in skating is to greatly reduce his school time

It depends how you define "successful."

Do you define it by competition results?

By getting to go to Nationals, at least at lower levels? (As a boy, if he takes up pairs, it will almost be guaranteed that he would get there most years just because of numbers. But pairs is a whole other level of expense and danger. Even in singles, his chances are much much higher as a boy than they would be for a girl with the same talent level.)

By jumps landed, regardless of results?

By quality of basic skating and performance quality?

By having a sense of accomplishment? Passing all his tests? Having fun all along the way?

You can't predict any of that at such a young age, because there are too many different variables. If you set goals of having fun and feeling accomplished, you can adjust the time commitment each year, or more often, in response to how his skating is going and how much he's enjoying it.

I think we can say that 2 hours a week of ice time would not get him to Nationals, and 20 hours a week is not necessary at this point. (If he gets the point of working on double axels and triples and trying to qualify, you could reevaluate then.)

Finding the right schedule for you and your family is something you have to work out yourselves -- your situation is not anyone else's, your kid is not anyone else's kid.

If you're looking to estimate talent level, I would reiterate that you should look at the quality of the basic skating, not just on what jumps are mastered when -- it's harder to measure, but rate of passing MITF tests and passing them with higher than the minimum scores would be a good indication. When you get to IJS levels, the program component scores, compared to other skaters at that level, will also tell you a lot.

And also what others have posted: when a skater first lands each jump is less important than the quality of the jumps.

A few have said essentially answered that question and they've said things like:
- Give it as many hours as it takes to either learn the double axel or quit
- Give it as many hours as it takes to stay fun
- Give it as many hours as you can afford (and by afford, that includes taking out loans)
- There's just no way to answer; too many variables

Honestly, I did not expect that these would be the answers, except for the 'just let him skate' response.

What did you expect?
 

treesprite

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
I think the OP deserves kudos for encouraging and helping her child be involved in any activities outside of home. My parents had next to nothing to do with my skating, and did nothing to help me be involved in anything else. I would have been happy if they had taken enough of an interest to do research and post on message forums. There are a lot of parents out there who wouldn't bother with making inquiries at all, but clearly the OP is not one of them.
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
I think the OP deserves kudos for encouraging and helping her child be involved in any activities outside of home. My parents had next to nothing to do with my skating, and did nothing to help me be involved in anything else. I would have been happy if they had taken enough of an interest to do research and post on message forums. There are a lot of parents out there who wouldn't bother with making inquiries at all, but clearly the OP is not one of them.

I guess you missed the post with the ranting and spewing of all kinds of hate about figure skating. :sarcasm:
 

treesprite

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
I guess you missed the post with the ranting and spewing of all kinds of hate about figure skating. :sarcasm:

No, I saw it. However, even if the parent hates ithe sport, she put her child's interest in it above her personal opinion about it. Also, it seems obvious that she isn't one of those skating parents who puts her kid in certain activities to live a second life through him.
 

concorde

Medalist
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
The OP seems overly stressed about injuries. What she does not realize is that the parents of the young skater play a key role in the extent of the injury.

When the child complains, do the parents ignore the complaint or follow up (my personal rule of thumb is if the complaint does not go away in a week, we see the doctor)? When the complaint is followed up, does they follow all of the doctor's advice or do they pick and choose which advice to follow. When all of the doctor's advice is not followed, then the issues can worsen. Good example is Med and her current injury which I believe she skated on for 2 months knowing there was a problem.

Injuries happen in about everything we do, athletes get injuries but so do musicians (over use of certain fine muscles). If you do nothing, then you risk weight issues. It's about doing risk benefit analysis and each family puts a different weight on both risk and benefit.

I disagree with treesprite about the mom''s attitude. There is a difference between giving a child opportunities and throwing road blocks in the way of opportunities. If you allow your child to do something where you (the parent) are negative, it will overflow to your child so no one wins.

Based on what I have read here from the OP, I really don't see how the child can succeed as a competitive ice skating regardless of the child's natural talent because both parents are not behind it. To be successful as a competitive figure skater, the entire family must support it both financially and time wise.
 

treesprite

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
The OP seems overly stressed about injuries. What she does not realize is that the parents of the young skater play a key role in the extent of the injury.

When the child complains, do the parents ignore the complaint or follow up (my personal rule of thumb is if the complaint does not go away in a week, we see the doctor)? When the complaint is followed up, does they follow all of the doctor's advice or do they pick and choose which advice to follow. When all of the doctor's advice is not followed, then the issues can worsen. Good example is Med and her current injury which I believe she skated on for 2 months knowing there was a problem.

Aside from at least one non-figure skater dad at our rink who insists on coaching his kids (the coach seems to encourage it), who turns his head away and refuses to answer his kids when they come in tears from falling from jumping jumps they aren't ready to even be working on, or are using wrong technique because that is what the dad tells them to do.....

How are parents responsible for the occurrence of injuries? Are you talking about the kids making mistakes from stress caused by the parents? My parents completely ignored me and believe me, it did not cause stress.

Something I have seen though, is a 17yo girl getting hysterical after mildly spraining her ankle on an off-ice jump, because she was afraid her parents would make her quit skating if they saw she was injured.

People here "seem" to me to be looking at the situation from only one viewpoint though. Perhaps I missed something, because I have not seen a statement that the child would not be allowed to skate at all if the OP thinks he can't become an elite skater. Also, I think people are only looking at this either as people whose parents were involved in their skating, or after already becoming self-supporting adults. From my past personal experience, I think the child is lucky to have a parent who would even consider transporting him the the rink one time a week (Mine did not transport me except to group lessons at the only area rink which was seasonal. Once the indoor rink, and my private lessons, started at age 15, I had to take a bus for 2 hours 45 minutes each way, and pay every penny of skating with my own money. If I had broken a bone, it would have been strangers taking me to a hospital and my parents wouldn't know until I came home with a cast. They never, not once single time, spoke even a single word with the coach who I hired on my own at 15, and paid with my own money).
 

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
gkelly, just want to say thank you for all the helpful, specific information you have provided in both your posts in this thread and elsewhere on the forums.
It depends how you define "successful."

Kiddo currently defines success as...
long-term: being an elite skater who could compete at high levels internationally
short-term: mastered jumps

He is focused on jumps because to him they are the most fun of skating, along with spins and little tricks.
To him, MITF are stressful and the least fun. Not only just the tests but also practicing because they are very difficult to practice on busy rinks.

I define success as...
long-term: excellence in sport, living up to full potential, having lifelong interest in sport/active life
short-term to medium term: progressing at a steady rate, feeling a sense of accomplishment, developing internal discipline to motivate self, developing the skill to talk self off the ledge in stressful situations

I think the OP deserves kudos for encouraging and helping her child be involved in any activities outside of home. My parents had next to nothing to do with my skating, and did nothing to help me be involved in anything else. I would have been happy if they had taken enough of an interest to do research and post on message forums. There are a lot of parents out there who wouldn't bother with making inquiries at all, but clearly the OP is not one of them.
Thank you. I'm so sorry your parents weren't more supportive.
You are right that many parents don't do any research whatsoever and base all their decisions purely off their own interests or what friends and coaches say. They don't read any books or articles or studies. Example (totally unrelated to figure skating): Many parents make car seat safety decisions based on what their friends say. They don't read at all about it. They just buy whatever is convenient and follows the law and go from there. Studies suggest most don't bother reading the car seat instruction manual and actually use the car seat incorrectly.
https://www.parents.com/baby/all-ab...arents-use-infant-car-seats-with-no-mistakes/

No, I saw it. However, even if the parent hates ithe sport, she put her child's interest in it above her personal opinion about it. Also, it seems obvious that she isn't one of those skating parents who puts her kid in certain activities to live a second life through him.

Yes, I drive him 4-5 times a week to skate and we pay about $200/week right now for skating, not including skates, travel, costumes, and competition fees. It adds up to more than his private school tuition. When I admit that to other non-skater parents their jaws drop. They cannot imagine spending so much money on any sport at this age. They think we are crazy. And even some other skater parents think it's too much, though they're far more accepting of the costs because they understand that elite level skating comes at a high price. And well, that's been pointed out in this thread and I appreciate that - he simply cannot come close to achieving his goals if he is limited to only 2-3 hours per week of skating, on average.

I think it may be hard for some people who are not parents to understand how one could be supportive of a child who has a passion for something you dislike. But the reality is that many parents can do this. It's called unconditional love. It means we love and support them no matter what.

As a boy, if he takes up pairs, it will almost be guaranteed that he would get there most years just because of numbers. But pairs is a whole other level of expense and danger. Even in singles, his chances are much much higher as a boy than they would be for a girl with the same talent level.
This certainly explains some things I see at the rink. I did not know this information.
I new that there were opportunities for boys that did not exist for girls simply because there are far more girls in figure skating than boys in the US. But I did not know this about pairs. I don't want my son doing pairs (unless he really really wants to) but this is interesting to know.

I think we can say that 2 hours a week of ice time would not get him to Nationals, and 20 hours a week is not necessary at this point. (If he gets the point of working on double axels and triples and trying to qualify, you could reevaluate then.) [...]
If you're looking to estimate talent level, I would reiterate that you should look at the quality of the basic skating, not just on what jumps are mastered when -- it's harder to measure, but rate of passing MITF tests and passing them with higher than the minimum scores would be a good indication. When you get to IJS levels, the program component scores, compared to other skaters at that level, will also tell you a lot.

I'm sorry if it didn't come across earlier but I read your other post, liked it, and this is very helpful.

Overall I was trying to get a better picture for the timeline for progress and when we'd get a sense of whether he's on the elite skater track or the recreational skater track. Prior to this thread I did not know if we should be making a school decision now, in a year, in two years, in 5 years... On one hand, coach seemed to love the idea of switching to homeschool now so she could work with him more and set him up for Nationals in a few years. But teachers say, he's doing great and keep him in school. Some of our academic goals for him would be particularly difficult to achieve if we homeschool so this is a BIG decision. I needed to get a better feel for things to determine the right timeline to make these decisions. (Of course there are other factors to consider but they are not related to figure skating.)

when a skater first lands each jump is less important than the quality of the jumps.
Yes, but the chart and this thread has always assumed the timeline was for quality jumps - it specifies that the jumps are clean and consistent. So that was never in doubt. It was just something people wanted to harp on.
 

concorde

Medalist
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Aside from at least one non-figure skater dad at our rink who insists on coaching his kids (the coach seems to encourage it), who turns his head away and refuses to answer his kids when they come in tears from falling from jumping jumps they aren't ready to even be working on, or are using wrong technique because that is what the dad tells them to do.....

How are parents responsible for the occurrence of injuries? Are you talking about the kids making mistakes from stress caused by the parents? My parents completely ignored me and believe me, it did not cause stress.

Something I have seen though, is a 17yo girl getting hysterical after mildly spraining her ankle on an off-ice jump, because she was afraid her parents would make her quit skating if they saw she was injured.

I am talking about the parents that ignore the child's complaints and do not seek medical treatment soon enough OR the parents that seek treatment for their child but do not follow the doctor's advice as to how long to take off.

And both of those situations have a bad outcome.

My impression is the OP is trying to figure out the chances of her child becoming an elite skater. She is weighing finances, time, injurires, and mental health against the benefits. As one high level judge told me, you cannot look at the end point. You need to view ice skating as a journey.

In a lot of ways I see myself in the OP and I also wanted to know what I as getting myself into. The problem is there are just too many unknowns at each step along The way. As as your child gets better and better, the more resources the parents has to throw at the situation for your child to get better. It just does not seem to end.
 

Sibelius

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 28, 2017
I've kind of avoided this one since I'm relatively new to the forum, and the sport. I know my daughter isn't ever going to be an elite skater, I see them at her rink every day and she's never going to be close. I worry about the falls, I'm not sure how much longer I can watch her practice...I think I'll soon be one of those in the warm room waiting, although now they have video screens so you see the rink anyway. I actually left her at the rink by herself yesterday for practice for the first time (well, her coaches were on the ice with other skaters, so there were eyes on her) and it was one of the most agonizing 45 minutes for me, waiting for a call that she's hurt. Here's the thing. I have a 9 year girl child that is willing (well, most of the time) to get out of bed at 4:45 a.m., go train before school and come back after school for more. She wants to work, needs to work. How is that not making her a better person even if she never gets past a Lutz? She's mixing with world class skaters and coaches, Russians (who are a bit cranky these days!), Chinese, Japanese, Canadians, Brits, people with strength and purpose who have so much to teach her aside from skating. She's going to grow up to be a strong, confidant young woman with drive and purpose who can handle anything life throws at her. She falls and gets up. The USFSA campaign, We Get Up? Maybe a little corny, but I do believe if she can handle ice she can handle anything.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
He is focused on jumps because to him they are the most fun of skating, along with spins and little tricks.
To him, MITF are stressful and the least fun. Not only just the tests but also practicing because they are very difficult to practice on busy rinks.

It's typical for kids that age to be most interested in jumps, especially boys.
He will need to develop his skating skills if he wants to be able to master the harder jumps as well as to place well in competition.
Finding one or more less busy sessions to practice on might help, but that's more of a commitment for you.

Overall I was trying to get a better picture for the timeline for progress and when we'd get a sense of whether he's on the elite skater track or the recreational skater track. Prior to this thread I did not know if we should be making a school decision now, in a year, in two years, in 5 years... On one hand, coach seemed to love the idea of switching to homeschool now so she could work with him more and set him up for Nationals in a few years. But teachers say, he's doing great and keep him in school. Some of our academic goals for him would be particularly difficult to achieve if we homeschool so this is a BIG decision. I needed to get a better feel for things to determine the right timeline to make these decisions. (Of course there are other factors to consider but they are not related to figure skating.)

You have to make the decisions based on all the factors in your life.

If it were me, I'd say continue more or less as you have been for another 2 or 3 years, until he's ready to compete at juvenile level, and see how he stacks up against the other juvenile boys. Maybe gradually add a bit more ice time or lesson time when/if that seems to be the biggest limit on progress.

I wouldn't make any decisions at this point that would close off non-skating options for the future. But that's just me.

If you can look at the skill levels and age ranges among the juvenile boys in your region or section, those who qualified for Nationals and those who didn't come close, that might give you an idea of where you could be heading in a few years. If you can find out the kind of schedules the more successful kids follow and how long they've been at it, that would also be useful information.
 
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