Acquisition of Skills - averages | Golden Skate

Acquisition of Skills - averages

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Found this Acquisition of Skills chart online. It looks interesting!
See below - it starts at the bottom and works upward...

How accurate do you think it is???

Average of Skill Acquisition chart
All jumps are assumed cleanly landed on a running edge with speed

On and Off Ice Practice
Total hours ...... Jump Progression ......Years........... *Hours

5500>................ Quads ................. 11 > ................ 1000
5000 ................ Triple Axel ................ 10 ................ 900
4750 ................ ................ ................ 9.5................ 900
4500 ................ Triple Lutz................ 9.................... 800
4250 ................ ................ ............... 8.5................ 800
4000 ................ Triple Flip................ 8 ................... 800
3750 ................ Triple Loop................ 7.5................ 700
3500 ................ ................ ................ 7 ................ 700
3250................ Triple Toe ................ 6.5................ ...700
3000 ................ Triple Salchow.............. 6 ................ 600
2750 ................ ................ ................ 5.5................ 600
2500................ Double Axel ................ 5 ................ 500
2250 ................ ................ ................ 4.5 ................ 500
2000................ Double Lutz ................ 4.................. 250-500
1750 ................ ................ ................ 3.5 ................ 250-500
1500 ................ Double Flip................ 3 ................ 250-500
1250 ................ Double Loop................ 2.5 ................ 250-500
1000................ Double Toe................ 2 .................... 250-500
750 ................ Double Salchow........... 1.5................. 250-500
500 ................ Axel ............................ 1................ 250-500
250 all single revolution jumps, except Axel 0.5........... 250-500

*The assumption is that there is a transition to the morning before school practice sessions. Afternoon practice is gradually eliminated.
Allocation of time is divided in practicing jumps, spins, step sequences, and presentaion components, etc.


*Transition to USFS Tests and Competitions

On and Off Ice Practice
Basic Skating Skills Badge Program ................ Years ................ #Hours

750 Free Skating 1-4 .................................. 3 ................ 250-500
500 Beginner 5-8 ....................................... 2 ................ 250-350
250 Beginner 1-4 ..................................... 1................ 250-350

#The assumption is that the skater will take group classes in the afternoon and practice in the afternoon
*Skaters who practice more hours and have the benefit of private lesssons can be expected to progress more rapidly

The actual practice times may vary widely with test track skaters training from one to six or more hours a week and for six to twelve months per year. Skaters who are involved as a competitive skater will average twelve to twenty-four hours per week.
The most intense skaters will add office training to their on-ice practice sessions. Answering in hours per week provides a snapshot of what the skater and parents consider appropriate training volume for the goals they have established.

Link to the source where there is more to read: http://iceskatingresources.org/acquisitionofskills.pdf


edit to add: FOR THOSE WHO THINK THIS CHART IS INACCURATE CAN YOU PLEASE SUGGEST A BETTER RESOURCE ?
ALSO, can you be specific? For instance, "no its not accurate" is not helpful. Instead, perhaps "My experience coaching 200 skaters suggests that the average total hours to master the double axel is closer to 3000 not 2500" or "This chart looks fairly accurate but only for elite skaters."

2nd edit:
Related charts that I found are located in these resources...
http://www.skatingaheadofthecurve.com/
https://skatecanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Skate-Canada-LTAD-Model-EN.pdf
 

loopy

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
No idea, I have a skater without a 2a who by that chart should have all her triples, but it just doesn't seem to be happening. But most of her friends quit at 2a. She keeps trying.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
These kinds of charts are so stupid. Because even though they load them up with caveats about what they're assuming, people don't see that. A teenager who's having insecurities is going to look at that chart, not read or see the caveats, and it's just gonna make them feel worse.

I also don't think it's very accurate.
 

Seren

Wakabond Forever
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
I don't think they are particularly accurate.

Besides, Scott Hamiltons backflip isn't on there so the list must be incomplete. :dbana:
 

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
So just to be clear, most of you are saying you think it’s inaccurate because most skaters will take longer to reach these milestones?
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
So just to. E clear, most of you are saying you think it’s inaccurate because most skaters will take longer to reach these milestones?

I'm saying this as an elite skater. Everyone is different and there are so many factors that make this inaccurate. Some people will be faster than this chart, some slower, some may never reach some of these skills.
 

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Obv people will be varied, that’s why it says “average” not “most” or “normal”

And it won’t count people who never reach certain goals, just like “average time to learn a language fluently” won’t include people who only learn a few passing phrases.

I’m just asking if people think these hours are reasonable - because I’m curious about how serious to take my child’s skating. If a child is progressing more quickly than average then they might be gifted in this area and so it could make sense for the parents to pursue it seriously. If a child is progressing less quickly then it would make sense to treat skating as recreation.

Clearly passion and determination play roles and I don’t want to squash any dreams. I also understand that growth spurts and in particular puberty can be a huge setback and might even end a skaters chance of becoming elite.
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
Obv people will be varied, that’s why it says “average” not “most” or “normal”

And it won’t count people who never reach certain goals, just like “average time to learn a language fluently” won’t include people who only learn a few passing phrases.

I’m just asking if people think these hours are reasonable - because I’m curious about how serious to take my child’s skating. If a child is progressing more quickly than average then they might be gifted in this area and so it could make sense for the parents to pursue it seriously. If a child is progressing less quickly then it would make sense to treat skating as recreation.

Clearly passion and determination play roles and I don’t want to squash any dreams. I also understand that growth spurts and in particular puberty can be a huge setback and might even end a skaters chance of becoming elite.

Your best bet is to let your skater develop and not push them and see how things go for awhile. Don't overthink this.
 

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Your best bet is to let your skater develop and not push them and see how things go for awhile. Don't overthink this.

I certainly agree that when starting out doing group classes parents should just let things progress as they will and not worry too much.
I appreciate the sentiment, but things need to be thought about.

1. There are finite resources - money, time - available for this sport. We need to determine what is realistic.
2. Were it up to kiddo, we'd be living in poverty with all the money going to ice time, equipment, and coaching.
3. There's what coach says and wants - I believe she pushes a bit too much. At the same time, I don't want to ignore her wisdom.
4. Overtraining can cause overuse injuries; this chart gives an idea of what's reasonable for training.
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
I appreciate the sentiment, but things need to be thought about. I certainly agree that when starting out doing group classes parents should just let things progress as they will and not worry too much.

1. There are finite resources - money, time - available for this sport. We need to determine what is realistic.
2. Were it up to kiddo, we'd be living in poverty with all the money going to ice time, equipment, and coaching.
3. There's what coach says and wants - I believe she pushes a bit too much. At the same time, I don't want to ignore her wisdom.
4. Overtraining can cause overuse injuries; this chart gives an idea of what's reasonable for training.

:confused:Then why ask? I'm seriously confused by what you want here. You asked for our opinions and expertise. I (we) gave it to you and still you want to follow your chart that is not accurate.

Do you seriously think any of our parents were rich and just threw money at us for skating? Elite level skating (if one gets there) is very taxing for many families and those of us who make it have our parents and their sometimes 4 home mortgages and more to thank for it.

They believed in us and let us develop.

No one ever told you to let your kid overtrain. That's the last thing I would suggest coming from my background and knowing what I know about the sport.
 

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
I seriously feel like many people here don't seem to understand what the word average means. It means that half of skaters will progress more rapidly than the chart and half will progress more slowly than what the chart says. (If the chart is accurate, that is.)

I feel like most here are just rejecting the idea of any chart, not really commenting on whether this is accurate or not.
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
I seriously feel like many people here don't seem to understand what the word average means. It means that half of skaters will progress more rapidly than the chart and half will progress more slowly than what the chart says. (If the chart is accurate, that is.)

I feel like most here are just rejecting the idea of any chart, not really commenting on whether this is accurate or not.

Then perhaps you need to refer back to post 7 in this thread where I laid all of that out.
 

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Here is the original article that accompanies the chart (link above with chart, my emphasis added):

Skaters and parents often inquire about how long it will take to reach specific milestones. This is a very difficult question to answer because of the multiple factors influencing the learning progress and thus, affecting the outcome.

Test and competitive skaters usually acquire skating skills more quickly because they tend to skate more often. A regular training schedule plays a large part in skill acquisition; however, the skater’s age, skating skill level, muscle coordination, mental focus, and the skater’s personality are equally important so only very general guidelines can be suggested.

A practice schedule is best viewed for a typical total weekly sessions in hours, during the school year, with a separate and a more intensive schedule of a summer training program. Some parents and skaters like to measure how many months it took them to acquire the axel - 1.5 revolutions.

A major problem is that not all individuals who perform an axel are performing the jump with the same quality as measured by a clean entry and exit (landing) edge, height of the jump, the speed into and exiting the jump, plus the performance/presentation of the jump.

The Average of Skill Acquisition chart assumes there is a separate Beginning Phase that starts with the skater's first day on the ice. The second phase of the training starts with joining the USFS and starting to prepare for Moves In The Field (MITF) and Free Skating tests.

The jumps on this chart are assumed to be fully rotated, performed correctly, and of a fairly consistent quality. The middle of the chart is a general schedule of skill acquisition based on total training volume shown in hours. [This chart] is meant to be a very general frame of reference and not a hard and fast schedule.

Progress in mastering jumps does not move forward on an even schedule – a new jump every six months. If that were the case, more skaters would be doing triple jumps. It takes longer to master certain jumps. For example, there is usually a large gap between mastering a double flip and a double Lutz and an even greater gap in achieving the double axel.

The double axel, because of it forward takeoff, is exceptionally difficult to master. This is not unexpected and reflects the need to create increased rotational speed, more speed into the jump, and increased thrust or spring that results in more airtime in which to rotate the 2 and half rotations.

A double Axel is the bridge between doubles and triples. There are relatively few competitive skaters who master it and go on to learn triple revolutions required to be successful in the Junior and Senior level events at the USFS National Championships.

The actual practice times may vary widely with test track skaters training from one to six or more hours a week and for six to twelve months per year. Skaters who are involved as a competitive skater will average twelve to twenty-four hours per week.

The most intense skaters will add office training to their on-ice practice sessions. Answering in hours per week provides a snapshot of what the skater and parents consider appropriate training volume for the goals they have established. Skaters who consistently practice can expect to progress quicker than those who practice sporadically.


The number of competitive track skaters in the USA, at all levels, who can consistently perform clean Double Axels is quite small – 100 to 300 skaters.

Skaters and parents need to understand that the rotations in all jumps must be fully completed and landed on one foot with a running edge on the jump’s landing exit to receive credit on tests and in competitions.

Skaters need to understand that learning to do a double axel is a major milestone. All skaters should expect a developmental delay while attempting to learn the double axel and perform it consistently under the stress of test and competition conditions.

All skaters experience anxiety and frustration at this stage. Parents need to be especially supportive when their skaters are experiencing difficulties learning the double axel and triple revolution jumps.




I also found another chart that is similar with another similar article online here: http://www.skatingaheadofthecurve.com/TimingOfSkillAcquisition.html
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I think the main thing to take away from these charts is:

If you want consistent double jumps, that will require a significant time commitment for several years to acquire and maintain.

If you want double axels and triple jumps, even more of a commitment will be required, there may be a few years of struggling to get past that plateau, and the majority of skaters do not get past it.

If you're still at the single jump or beginning double jump stage, it's too soon to say whether you will ever be able to land a double axel or triples or be able to do so consistently. (If you're already past your major growth spurts, then it's unlikely. If you're still a child, you probably won't know whether your post-growth body type will be conducive to those jumps until after you grow.)

If skating almost daily with several lessons per week for several more years will not be worthwhile unless you achieve those elite jumps, then it probably won't be worth your while.

If the process of training and competing at the middle levels will be rewarding in itself, then go for it.

Once you get to the point of learning the double axel, you'll have a better idea of whether it's likely to be possible at all with even more hard work, and whether the time and expense and toll on the body will be worth it.
 

loopy

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
It depends on the coach - has the coach taught many skaters over the years doubles and triples? Have they had a skater at nationals? Does your child mesh with the coach? Does the coach have the best interest of your child as a young athlete?

It depends on the rink - is it well maintained? Do they have 3+ freestyle sessions a day?

It depends on the parents - are they good at letting skating happen at the rink and not at the kitchen table? Do they have the funds for the child to progress to several lessons a week and practice ice time? Do they have time?

It depends on the child - do they have natural ability combined with serious work ethic (appropriate to age). If not natural ability, are they fearless and confident and unwavering when it gets hard? Do they have other strong interests?

It depends on what you want them to get out of skating. It is only worthwhile to you to expend income if there is a prize at the end like nationals?

If your child is 7-8 and doing double jumps - they have natural talent and that can lead to winning local competitions. Who knows from there? My daughter skated with girls who were intense with skating, they had their doubles and were on the track to nationals. And then they quit. Some from too many injuries, others because they found a new interest.

There is no real average when so many kids don't reach an axel - ever. It's an individual sport and a lot depends on the individual. It would be silly to base your decision on a chart where no matter how many hours they practice, if they are a female, they will never reach quads, even if the chart says otherwise.

You can't bank anything on this sport. There are no guarantees.
 

VegMom

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
If you're still at the single jump or beginning double jump stage, it's too soon to say whether you will ever be able to land a double axel or triples or be able to do so consistently.[...]

Once you get to the point of learning the double axel, you'll have a better idea of whether it's likely to be possible at all with even more hard work, and whether the time and expense and toll on the body will be worth it.

This was very helpful. Thank you.

edit: original was TMI
 

loopy

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
LOL
Women have already landed quads. This WILL be happening more and more as this sport becomes more accessible.

Clean and in competition? If looking at averages, it is statistically almost nil.
 
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