You're right that we don't have elite skaters at my rink and there are a lot more injuries at that level, but I'm operating under the assumption that OP's child will most likely be in the 95% of skaters who will not fall into that category. I don't think we can assess the risks to her particular skater by looking at injuries to elite skaters working on triples and quads. If you adjust the risk statistics to include only the vast majority of skaters (those working on doubles and below), then the level of risk drops like a rock. Understanding OP's distaste for the sport and her concern for the possible financial "ruin" it could cause, my assumption is that her son probably won't fall into the category of skaters working on the kinds of jumps that cause major injuries.
Acquisition of Skills - averages
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You're right that we don't have elite skaters at my rink and there are a lot more injuries at that level, but I'm operating under the assumption that OP's child will most likely be in the 95% of skaters who will not fall into that category. I don't think we can assess the risks to her particular skater by looking at injuries to elite skaters working on triples and quads. If you adjust the risk statistics to include only the vast majority of skaters (those working on doubles and below), then the level of risk drops like a rock. Understanding OP's distaste for the sport and her concern for the possible financial "ruin" it could cause, my assumption is that her son probably won't fall into the category of skaters working on the kinds of jumps that cause major injuries.
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I wasn't just assessing risks for the elite level. I was covering all levels and that's why I didn't want to make assumptions about your rink and directed it to you. I do agree though about her kid not having to worry about that kind of thing and making it elite like I said is 1-2 percentile.
I know. I just think she was looking at risks more geared toward elite skaters. It's just jumping the gun a bit to assume the skating risk to your average 2nd grader is even in the same universe as the risk to someone like Nathan Chen. Most kids aren't training at that level. There is a big difference between a kid skateboarding down the sidewalk outside his house for 20 minutes a few times a week and Tony Hawk. To ignore that is not productive in a conversation about risks to her particular skater.
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If we are now talking risks, I hate to break it to folks, but just skating around the rink is just as risky as jumping. I have had 3 broken bones and I was not doing a jump or a spin or tricky footwork when they happened, unless you count standing in one place or just doing a mohawk as tricky or risky. Crossing the street is more risky than jumping on skates. Injuries from other skaters is more common than injuries from individual skating (I have had a few injuries becuase of other skaters either falling into me, swinging a leg out, jumping too close to me, tripping me).
I get how you feel - skating is so expensive and it’s easy to get sucked into thinking it’s all or nothing- spend your whole life skating 2x a day with a lesson every day, or you are holding your kid back. It’s totally fine to keep him at a medium of a couple of lessons a week and 6 hours of ice time - he’ll still improve if he’s serious about skating. I get he probably wants to skate as much as he can, but if you overextend yourself and stress yourself and your skater out, they can get burned out and quit.
If there's any statistic people on this forum seem to agree on, it's that big success in this sport is a huge long-shot.
So the consensus is, if you're going to skate then just do it for fun.
People here are also not big on citing sources that back up their claims.
Coach would love to have him pass multiple tests in a year and practice twice a day, everyday... coach thinks (and other coaches say it too) that he has real talent and will go far if he keeps skating. But I know that level of training would burn him out and it certainly will burn me out. It's not good for his longterm development as either a skater or just as a human. It's already interfering with school and his social life. And the level of training she wants is not consistent with the guidelines suggested by SkateCanada for his age. I know he has fantastic potential for skating but I just can't 'put all our eggs in one basket.'
I signed him up for another sport yesterday. If he continues skating then this sport will be complimentary. If he quits skating then he can do this sport instead.
So the consensus is, if you're going to skate then just do it for fun.
People here are also not big on citing sources that back up their claims.
Coach would love to have him pass multiple tests in a year and practice twice a day, everyday... coach thinks (and other coaches say it too) that he has real talent and will go far if he keeps skating. But I know that level of training would burn him out and it certainly will burn me out. It's not good for his longterm development as either a skater or just as a human. It's already interfering with school and his social life. And the level of training she wants is not consistent with the guidelines suggested by SkateCanada for his age. I know he has fantastic potential for skating but I just can't 'put all our eggs in one basket.'
I signed him up for another sport yesterday. If he continues skating then this sport will be complimentary. If he quits skating then he can do this sport instead.
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You seem very sure about how he will feel.
Is this something he chose for himself or is this mum trying to push him away from the sport he loves because she hates it?
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Burnout is real and not something you can predict. My skater wanted to "skate everyday" when asked at the beginning of the season (not financially possible and also not in line with LTAD for 7 year old) but was able to get in 8 hours/week. Then got pushed by the coach to pass a bunch of tests, including many of the pattern dances, which were not interesting AT ALL to my skater. Somewhere, the joy got lost and now we are at the point of "I don't want to skate today" and "I am done after this season, I am never skating again.". He also had a lot of "promise" but basically stalled out this year, making pretty much no progress at all (except for passing a whack of pattern dances). Somewhere, it became "work" and not "fun" and I discovered that my child does not have the rare personality needed to specialize in this sport at an early age. He still likes skating, but doesn't like the repetition and training needed to acquire the skills to progress. That's OK though -We will take a break and then I'll let him come back on his own terms, if and when he wants to. In retrospect, I wish I had been more forceful with the coach in saying that I was less concerned about progress/tests than fostering his interest and love of the sport. He didn't really expect that this year it would be as much pressure as it was - some kids respond well to it and some don't (mine certainly didn't).
My point being, is that you know your child best and if you think they will get burned out (or the family will get burned out - emotionally or financially) then pull back and let it be more recreational for a while until there is a clear focus on skating and your child gets more of an understanding of the work that is ahead. What's nice about skating is that you can always do it at your own pace and at your own level, but still enjoy it. My skater has diverse interests - the type of kid who wants to be really good at 5 things but not EXCELLENT at one thing, so I'm trying to create more balance for him as none of his sport interests appear to dominate all others. On the other hand, there are kids in his other sports that are CLEARLY very focused on one sport only - they live, breathe, eat, and sleep that sport. They voluntarily play and train everyday on their own with no prompting - for me, its clearer that those kids are on a specialist path but I never see that kind of internally driven commitment to a single sport from my kid (again, that's ok, but that's why I'm not pushing to specialize even though that may be the path to "success").
If your parental instinct is telling you to pull back for now for the well-being of your child, then that's what you should do. Do not let the argument that your child has "potential" get in the way of doing what you think is best as a parent. If you don't think they are the rare kid that will enjoy and respond well to intense training (some do/some don't), then don't let the promise of a "bright future in skating" cloud your judgement as a parent.
Thank you, SmallAnimal. Yes I know him very well and I can see we need to push back against coach a bit. If he is to have a future in skating, then it must stay fun and safe.
He could however, easily be pushed into overtraining skating to the point of injury and beyond.
He chose it. He’s not the kind of kid who can easily be pushed into something he doesn’t want to do. If he were I would have just pushed him into soccer or basketball (because those are much more accessible sports). Then we never would have done so much with Figure skating. His personality is precisely why he’s doing figure skating. He rejected many many other sports.
He could however, easily be pushed into overtraining skating to the point of injury and beyond.
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You say you know your kid has potential and you don't want him to skate any more than he does now... Pardon me asking but what exactly did you think you'd achieve by starting this thread? You seem to shoot down any input that's different from what you had in mind, so why are you even on this forum when you already know what you want to do & dislike figure skating so much?
I have asked the moderators to delete this thread. They seem to either be too busy or they don't want to delete it.
So... the people who continue to harp "WHY did you start this thread if you don't like hearing us call you selfish and stupid???" Well, I tried to delete it.
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ETA: I have given thumbs up to the posts in this thread that have been helpful to me, the ones that are (to me) related to the reason I started the thread.
I think there's several issues running in parallel here:
1. An average does exist. If someone asks "Does it take more or less than one day for my child to learn up to a double axel" most people will say "more". If someone asks "Does it take more or less than 20 years for my child to learn up to a double axel" most people will say "less". So there is a value in there somewhere in between. The question is whether or not a given value is accurate, i.e. if the chart is taken from actual data or guesstimates by the coach(es) who made the chart, etc.
2. The more important issue is whether or not that average is relevant. Individual progress varies widely, depending on age, body type, body awareness, body type, willingness (being willing to try new stuff even if they'll fall), motivation, coaching quality, ice time, money, etc. At my rink there have been people who started doing single axels after a single lesson, and there are others who take a year or longer (one took 4 years). At the Juvenile Regional level, I've seen skaters with as few as 3 years and as many as 6-7 years of skating experience. So it varies widely. Thus it's close to impossible to know in advance just how long it will take for your child to learn these skills, other than a rough guesstimate.
I think the key takeaway though is to know that doing those harder jumps will take months or years. One of my coach's favorite stories is of a parent who, after their child starting landing double lutzes, said "I'll pay you for some extra lessons for the next 3 weeks for my child to learn the double axel". Sometimes parents (and others) have little understanding of just how difficult these skills are to learn, how long it takes to learn them, and all the lesson time and falls and heartache in between. Perhaps the main lesson of the chart should be that if you want your child to get up to a double axel, it'll take several years. Beyond that, it's highly variable.
1. An average does exist. If someone asks "Does it take more or less than one day for my child to learn up to a double axel" most people will say "more". If someone asks "Does it take more or less than 20 years for my child to learn up to a double axel" most people will say "less". So there is a value in there somewhere in between. The question is whether or not a given value is accurate, i.e. if the chart is taken from actual data or guesstimates by the coach(es) who made the chart, etc.
2. The more important issue is whether or not that average is relevant. Individual progress varies widely, depending on age, body type, body awareness, body type, willingness (being willing to try new stuff even if they'll fall), motivation, coaching quality, ice time, money, etc. At my rink there have been people who started doing single axels after a single lesson, and there are others who take a year or longer (one took 4 years). At the Juvenile Regional level, I've seen skaters with as few as 3 years and as many as 6-7 years of skating experience. So it varies widely. Thus it's close to impossible to know in advance just how long it will take for your child to learn these skills, other than a rough guesstimate.
I think the key takeaway though is to know that doing those harder jumps will take months or years. One of my coach's favorite stories is of a parent who, after their child starting landing double lutzes, said "I'll pay you for some extra lessons for the next 3 weeks for my child to learn the double axel". Sometimes parents (and others) have little understanding of just how difficult these skills are to learn, how long it takes to learn them, and all the lesson time and falls and heartache in between. Perhaps the main lesson of the chart should be that if you want your child to get up to a double axel, it'll take several years. Beyond that, it's highly variable.
I hope they don't delete this thread. It's very frustrating to invest in a conversation, thoughtfully writing things you think might help not just the OP, but others who happen upon the thread, only to have it deleted because the OP didn't like the outcome. The original intent (that I perceived) of the thread was lost over the pages, but there are still a lot of things to reflect on in this thread. If not for the OP, then for others who might have the same questions.
The original question was about how serious to take skating based on whether the skater is "gifted" and progressing at a faster rate than anticipated. I think this thread answered that question very thoroughly and from many angles.
The original question was about how serious to take skating based on whether the skater is "gifted" and progressing at a faster rate than anticipated. I think this thread answered that question very thoroughly and from many angles.
This chart here: http://www.skatingaheadofthecurve.com/AnnualTrainingVolume.html
explains the areas where it's overtraining and "no man's land" and gives a guide for weekly training.
For instance, according to that chart, a child age 7-9 could skate anywhere from 250 hours per year to 450 and still be on track to be a competitive skater so long as they are showing consistent improvement. A skater skating less than 250 hours per year at that age is unlikely to have a shot at being competitive. And a skater skating more than 450 hours per year at that age is over-training, which is ripe for injury and/or burnout. (In other words, an 8 year old skating 3-4 hours a day is likely overtraining. An 8 year old skating 3-4 hours per week is likely not skating often enough to be competitive.)
This is similar to the SkateCanada's guidelines. Those are discussed here http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...t-to-be-a-figure-skater&p=1837831#post1837831
So... assuming this is correct, a parent of a child that age could decide to have their skater skate 250 hours per year or 450 or anything in between and still give their skater the opportunity to be competitive. This averages out to be a choice to skate 45-60 min once a day 5-6 days a week or twice a day 5-6 days a week. But then when the child reaches about 10 or 11 a parent would have to decide which route to go because in order to stay competitive, the skater would really need to skate twice a day. (And given that he's 'ahead of the curve' already - since many of you have said the chart in the first post is mostly inaccurate because you believe it takes most people longer on average to learn those skills, then I don't think that I will be holding him back by only training 250 hours per week until he is is 9 or 10 - despite some poster's claims that he's going to resent me his whole life if I don't let him skate as much as he wants.)
Then of course, there is the importance of OFF ICE training. So, a parent might choose to have their skater do the lower number of hours on ice and then also plenty of hours off ice, perhaps largely in the form of a complimentary sport
But maybe none of that is correct and a parent needn't worry about overtraining, injury, burnout etc and the parent shouldn't be so "selfish" as to strategically allocate resources and the parent should just do whatever the coach wants because they can't possibly have conflicts of interest and the parent shouldn't "overthink it." Also, perhaps books and booklets written by figure skating experts that have charts should be disregarded as should studies by medical professionals. Go with your gut; science and math are bad!
explains the areas where it's overtraining and "no man's land" and gives a guide for weekly training.
For instance, according to that chart, a child age 7-9 could skate anywhere from 250 hours per year to 450 and still be on track to be a competitive skater so long as they are showing consistent improvement. A skater skating less than 250 hours per year at that age is unlikely to have a shot at being competitive. And a skater skating more than 450 hours per year at that age is over-training, which is ripe for injury and/or burnout. (In other words, an 8 year old skating 3-4 hours a day is likely overtraining. An 8 year old skating 3-4 hours per week is likely not skating often enough to be competitive.)
This is similar to the SkateCanada's guidelines. Those are discussed here http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...t-to-be-a-figure-skater&p=1837831#post1837831
So... assuming this is correct, a parent of a child that age could decide to have their skater skate 250 hours per year or 450 or anything in between and still give their skater the opportunity to be competitive. This averages out to be a choice to skate 45-60 min once a day 5-6 days a week or twice a day 5-6 days a week. But then when the child reaches about 10 or 11 a parent would have to decide which route to go because in order to stay competitive, the skater would really need to skate twice a day. (And given that he's 'ahead of the curve' already - since many of you have said the chart in the first post is mostly inaccurate because you believe it takes most people longer on average to learn those skills, then I don't think that I will be holding him back by only training 250 hours per week until he is is 9 or 10 - despite some poster's claims that he's going to resent me his whole life if I don't let him skate as much as he wants.)
Then of course, there is the importance of OFF ICE training. So, a parent might choose to have their skater do the lower number of hours on ice and then also plenty of hours off ice, perhaps largely in the form of a complimentary sport
But maybe none of that is correct and a parent needn't worry about overtraining, injury, burnout etc and the parent shouldn't be so "selfish" as to strategically allocate resources and the parent should just do whatever the coach wants because they can't possibly have conflicts of interest and the parent shouldn't "overthink it." Also, perhaps books and booklets written by figure skating experts that have charts should be disregarded as should studies by medical professionals. Go with your gut; science and math are bad!
zone.Thanks, AndreaRu. I excused myself from the conversation several pages ago, seeing that my own time and efforts in responding to the OP was not at all appreciated, and I didn't know why you guys still forged on with your replies. But, I'm glad you all did, because I certainly learnt much from all your responses! Thanks!
Where is your evidence? Can you cite anything reliable? I cited links that reference both recreational and elite skaters. Holiday public skate sessions are dangerous enough that the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends helmets for ALL kids and so does the USFSA. Most rinks encourage helmets for beginner children because the risk is so big!
https://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the...and-safety-tips/pages/Winter-Safety-Tips.aspx
http://www.usfsa.org/content/Getting Started in Ice Skating flier.pdf
It sounds to me like you think the middle ground area where skaters are competent but they're doing doubles and below is somehow just not dangerous. That's ignore the risk of collision with other skaters, which is probably the biggest risk.
Indeed. And a handful of comments have been specific about what they think the averages might be.
OK, it varies. It varies only 3-4 years according to your experience. If you put the skater's practice time in hours it might vary less. Obviously a kid who is homeschooled and skates 3 hours a day and does off ice at least an hour a day is going to progress more quickly than a kid who goes to school and practices 2 hours per day.
Well, what's impossible to know is IF they will learn certain skills. But it's not impossible to know that IF they learn them, there's a range of when they will learn them.
You're the one making claims, so the burden really falls on you. Obviously there isn't going to be a study that says how many injuries don't happen. If you look at any given study, the numbers fluctuate, but for example, if you look at this study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12860537
It found that 25-29% of elite skaters have experienced injuries. Most commonly these are jumper's knee and stress fractures. Not exactly life-threatening, but injuries nonetheless. All of USFS's membership is not
experiencing injuries at that rate. That doesn't even include the recreational skaters, occasional skaters, ISI members, once-a-year skaters, etc. If 25%+ of everyone who skates got injured, we'd be having a MUCH bigger conversation not on this forum.
I don't think you're really open to any of this, though. Based on the post you made and deleted, I still don't think this is about injuries or risk but about your child being gifted and how quickly he is progressing.
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- Aug 30, 2017
I'm going to answer with an example of various fields, and then try to forget all about this topic (while I agree it would be a pity to see it delete):
I'd probably laugh out loud if you, as a parent of a very talented 7yr old kid in piano who studies a lot (meaning they can play a Mozart Sonatina, or maybe a Song Without Words by Mendelssohn, and this would be frankly amazing and pushing it!!) go to me as their teacher and ask when can your kid learn the 3rd Piano Concerto of Rachmaninoff.
If I'm teaching maths and a really good talented 7yr old kid with amazing abilities (maybe he can do some crazy stuff like multiplying double digits from his head) asks me when he can prove Goldberg's Theorem or something similar (apart from being very impressed) I'll have, still, no answer.
If a really cultured and interested in writing kid (or probably his parents) asks me when he can write something comparable to James Joyce's Ulises, again, same non-answer. Or write something worth a National Prize —may be a better comparison.
But anyway, with that kind of ages is really difficult to answer, because you need to take multiple things into account, some that don't even have to do anything to do with the kid itself. Some that do with the difficulty that goes with maintaining a good attitude and interest for years. Specially true for very active kids.
They may learn how to make a sonnet by the time they are 8,...so what?
Don't take this as discouragement to yourself or your kid. It's just that there are certain kind of activities that can't be measured accurately (more than "they'll learn it at some point, if any, before their bodies get too old). This was all the point of the topic, before it went crazy.
As for the risks and stuff, I'm no expert, I'm not a parent, and even if I was, I think it's also highly personal. It's not only your kid but also your dedication that also makes a difference.
I do seem to find that kids having a lot of activities are more stressed that those than focus in two or three (I also talk about my own experience here), but two sports are a good choice, specially if they're somehow related.
Best of luck to you and your kid. Happy skating!
Oh, I wasn't trying to ask 'when is he going to learn a double axel?' As I said before, I don't really care much about that. My interest is more in trying to maintain balance in his life and ours to help develop him into a healthy, good, smart person.
I was trying to ask 'How many hours should someone invest into figure skating to determine if there's really something there?'
And the reason I ask this is because it seems pretty obvious that the only way my kid is going to be successful in skating is to greatly reduce his school time (some kids are better at doing both and plenty do dance, skating, violin, and also excel in academics.. mine is not like that. He will do well in one or two areas, but not in 5 areas).
A few have said essentially answered that question and they've said things like:
- Give it as many hours as it takes to either learn the double axel or quit
- Give it as many hours as it takes to stay fun
- Give it as many hours as you can afford (and by afford, that includes taking out loans)
- There's just no way to answer; too many variables
Honestly, I did not expect that these would be the answers, except for the 'just let him skate' response.
