2017 GPF Short Dance

Alba said:

Well, I gues we can say De gustibus non disputandum est, with regards to costumes.
Slow skating who, H&B? Absolutely.



Those are great ideas too. :agree: You don't have to copy the same movements. The idea, the concept only, is suffice. You go to a choreographer and say I have this image in my mind. I want to express this and that. It's his/her job to translate all that into movements/dance. Even from a poetry or a book subject you can pull off smth great. A theatrical piece would be another great source too. I mean look at Stolbova&Klimov's FP "The Man and the Shadow" in 2015/2016. I came from a political documentary. Actually I think the music was the inspiration for her, haunting and dark. They went to Morozov and he did a great choreo for them. The same Morozov who has done plenty of generic crap also before. The ideas and concept is crucial, IMO. Especially in ID, when you do not have the big elements. Therefore, the storytelling through body movements and performance is really important.

As you rightly put it, Tessa and Scott are blessed with natural talent and their strength is the versatility. They can do drama, they can do sexy, playfulness. They can do rock, dark or romance. They had a vaste choice and what do they pick? "I love you. You love me. I am sooooooooo passionate about you. You're hot, I'm hot. Life isn't just, we can't be together. I die." :sarcasm: yeah no. I can watch The Notebook, if I want that.

I am being deliberately harsh because I hold them in high regard as skaters. They are so much more than THAT and I am a bit pissed they went with "safe".

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They actually chose their programs not to be safe but because it is what make them tick. Here again, as you said, de gustibus non disputandum est.

peepsquick said:

They actually chose their programs not to be safe but because it is what make them tick. Here again, as you said, de gustibus non disputandum est.

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I don't think you really understand that latin saying, because I am not talking about gusto here. It is not that I dislike the program per se. It is a great program for MR. I am talking about ideas and concepts and that's totally a different matter. It has nothing to do with degustibus. It is not about I like black, you like red.
Sure, I am not in their heads and I don't know if they chose it cause it's safe or not. They sure as hell didn't choose anything unique, original and mesmerising though. I am sure there are many other choices that makes them tick. The point is to make the judges and all of us tick with them too.

VIETgrlTerifa said:

I think V/M are hitting it too hard in their movements for the SD that it looks too close to their Prince SD rather than a new Latin dance. I think they should work on lightening it up a bit allowing the dance to looks more effortless.

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:cool2:

Spot on.

Not everyone hates the Shibs' costumes: https://twitter.com/ISU_Figure/status/938749515124707328

Alba said:

I don't think you really understand that latin saying, because I am not talking about gusto here. It is not that I dislike the program per se. It is a great program for MR. I am talking about ideas and concepts and that's totally a different matter. It has nothing to do with degustibus. It is not about I like black, you like red.
Sure, I am not in their heads and I don't know if they chose it cause it's safe or not. They sure as hell didn't choose anything unique, original and mesmerising though. I am sure there are many other choices that makes them tick. The point is to make the judges and all of us tick with them too.

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Oh, I get it (even Latin ... 6 years under my belt ) ... I just think that at this point of their career, they go with what they really feel is their strength AND their personal taste. The thing with the type of "versatility" people praise them for, is that it was born from the directive of coaches to change genre each season. I'm not sure they had often a real voice or choice or go explore for themselves. That made them great technicians and performers but they might want to finish as themselves. They would do certainly very well with a "contemporary-edgy"-type of choreography (suggested by someone on this thread? maybe you? sorry, I don't remember) but Olympic seasons are not great for such a big leap. What do you think?

VIETgrlTerifa said:

Not everyone hates the Shibs' costumes: https://twitter.com/ISU_Figure/status/938749515124707328

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OMG! Those little bears wearing the Alex and Maia costumes are beyond adorable!

After finally getting to watch the short dance I have three observations.

1. :curse: I will fight to the death anyone who insults Alex's sparkly shirt!

2. I don't care how difficult it is, Tess and Scott's rotational lift at the end of their SD is the ugliest thing I have ever seen.

3. P/C you are both so beautiful but WHY ED SHEERAN WHY!?!? First he corrupts game of thrones. Now figure skating. Nothing is sacred.


It should be obvious at this point why I will never be an ice dance commentator.

This eerily reminds me of 2014 - it seems pretty clear the judges are going to give gold to P/C. I still think you could give pcs to V and M by a fair amount but it is clear who the judges think are the gold medallists. Yay gold for France and another silver for V and M - kind of sad. I like the fact that there are so many amazing programs by them but that is not the game.

WeakAnkles said:

Voir missed a keypoint in the pattern. And only a level 3 on the non touch st sq.

But they do the best samba rolls!

HATE the program. It's so freaking busy and the music is pandering to the General Public. But you can't deny their talent. Easily into first.

ETA: And how interesting that Scott cut his hair for this. They're SERIOUS.

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Although I have great respect for this couple's achievements and talent, I am also not a fan of either of their programmes. To me this short dance looks overwrought - a sharp contrast to the smoothness of the French couple. And that leg-wrap lift at the end bothers me because it looks like she's strangling him with her legs. It's why my fave Canadians are Gilles/Poirier because to me they manage to achieve technical difficulty while still retaining a smooth laidback feeling to their free, also their short dance is less 'busy' than V/M's.

Skater Boy said:

This eerily reminds me of 2014 - it seems pretty clear the judges are going to give gold to P/C. I still think you could give pcs to V and M by a fair amount but it is clear who the judges think are the gold medallists. Yay gold for France and another silver for V and M - kind of sad. I like the fact that there are so many amazing programs by them but that is not the game.

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Why sad? They're former Olympic champions, they've had a good run.

viennaskater said:

Why sad? They're former Olympic champions, they've had a good run.

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Yes exactly my thoughts, then what should Weaver and Poje say ? If there's a team to be sorry for is them, always coming so close and being doomed by bad timing. V/M have won every single title there is to win out there many times over and are regarded as one of the greatest ID team, many teams would give their right arm for a fraction of their achievements.

And yet again 'you've had your turn' argument appears...and then some people stubbornly state that politicking in ID does not exist, yet constantly revoke that kind of thinking about return of one team degrades/makes less of another.

There was never a guarantee that Tessa and Scott will return in solid competitive shape and moreover - a lot of people did not give them a chance to get back on the top, looking at how ID scene looked therefore. They came back and showed that they are still able to compete with the best teams, winning or not, but keep the pace. If any other team cannot handle their own pace, material, control over execution, makes coaching changes - please note blame it on Virtue/Moir's return; if they are back- still with competition poise and skill - then STEP IT UP, not search for excuses around. And actually, Gabriella and Guillaume are probably the best example of that notion - because for me, this season they've stepped it up in terms of solidifying their skill/capabilities in competitive environment, they do not leave much on the table execution-wise, looking more comfortable than ever.

Yes - some will come up with argument that Virtue/Moir and Weaver/Poje are in the same country/fed, but to be honest Kaitlin and Andrew were starting to 'lose momentum' around 2015 where US teams started to gear up more solidly, Shibutanis underwent a change of approach, Hubbell/Donohue went to Montreal; then - their quad journey did not exactly proved that they are the most consistent team regarding hitting their stuff, especially execution-wise, yes - they are one of my favourite teams, I adore their personalities and performers' abilities, but these won't make the champions out of you, nor give you high scores.

So...for me, 'you've had your turn' is somehow lame excuse to use when others cannot keep the pace and step it up their own game to make a statement for themselves. It's the way competition goes - we can feel sorry for a lot of skaters, but there should be never a reason to do so regarding one team's successful return.

The argument is not they've had their turn, it's just there is no need to feel sad in case they don't get the result they expected. I fully agree on the bring it on and step up your game. V/M came back in fantastic form and great for them, they've pushed the field even more, esp. Gaby and Guillaume. But let's face it W/P have had a bit of bad luck timing wise even before V/M's return, though they should have risen to the occasion more than once. I just think if we need to feel sad let it be for a team who never reached the stars. V/M doesn't rhyme with sadness for me at all on the contrary, they're so full of life and energy.

I have to say, I'm quite happy with the 99% of this forum. Whether your faves or not wins, or are last, etc, everyone seem to acknowledge the actual performances.
Twitter has become quite nasty. Every V/M ubers screaming "CORRUPTION" even before seeing the actual performances, bugs me so much. And they are tagging the skaters along with them (especially Gaby and Tessa - those 2 seem to get all the bad blood on the internet, it's annoying).

Where V/M lost points yesterday is where P/C use to lose last year. Nothing new. Overall it was a good SD event - a bit disappointed for H/D who lost levels and SHibs who weren't at the top of their game.

Watch the commentary with Ben Agosto on this channel : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOyQtuMFNZ2GR4CyIWMn7iw/videos

cocotaffy said:

The argument is not they've had their turn, it's just there is no need to feel sad in case they don't get the result they expected. I fully agree on the bring it on and step up your game. V/M came back in fantastic form and great for them, they've pushed the field even more, esp. Gaby and Guillaume. But let's face it W/P have had a bit of bad luck timing wise even before V/M's return, though they should have risen to the occasion more than once. I just think if we need to feel sad let it be for a team who never reached the stars. V/M doesn't rhyme with sadness for me at all on the contrary, they're so full of life and energy.

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I am not entirely sure, if Skater Boy's post with 'kind of sad' expression posted was directed towards Virtue/Moir's not getting results they expected. The saddening thing could be also about already shaped preference of judges towards material, because let's face it - stellar-performed 'Moulin Rouge' FD will never outscore 'Moonlight Sonata' FD performed in the same manner; this whole gearing up for ID Olympic competition feels pretty much 'decided' like it was last Olympic season - and this is not about bashing the team preferred by judges, but the sole circumstance of having this hierarchy created. And before anyone will come after me about conspiracy theories and made-up stuff - I'm referring just to trajectory of both teams shown this season, how their material respectively was evaluated, how 'borders' and progress scores-wise was shaping and everyone can tell the story here, no need to deny it and not taking anything from neither of teams.

and I agree - Tessa and Scott are not really about sadness themselves, but looking outside of that at their position competition-wise it's another story. The momentum is simply not there, but yeah - they stuck to this particular FD concept and the risk did not pay off.

I just want to say that Gabby looked so assertive, present, and unafraid through that whole dance -- she was making eye contact with everyone in that arena and daring them to drop their gaze first. I don't think I've ever seen her quite like that; I wonder if she's learned something about stage presence from training in the same group as Tessa...

A few thoughts on the P/C and V/M rivalry...

I think P/C are still beatable, even though they have stepped it up this year. And actually I think their free dance, for all the high scores it has received, makes them more vulnerable than their short dance this season. For all their artistry in other aspects, P/C have not brought an element of surprise into their free dance, because they have chosen to do a style that is so familiar for them; moreover, they have altered the music of Moonlight Sonata to avoid a passionate and chaotic ending and so have sidestepped, IMO, a challenge that would have been good for them.

However, I worry that Virtue and Moir may have hamstrung themselves with their choice of programs; I don't see an element of surprise in their material, either. If they're okay with another Olympic silver, then these programs will serve them just fine; but if they truly want to be Olympic champions again, then I just don't see how their current programs will get them there. Hopefully this competition will give them the kick in the pants they need to realize that their material is not, at least in its current state, giving them room to dance up to their full potential.

Maybe I'm wrong and V/M will win the free skate, but I have a sinking feeling about that...

NoNameFace said:

I am not entirely sure, if Skater Boy's post with 'kind of sad' expression posted was directed towards Virtue/Moir's not getting results they expected. The saddening thing could be also about already shaped preference of judges towards material, because let's face it - stellar-performed 'Moulin Rouge' FD will never outscore 'Moonlight Sonata' FD performed in the same manner; this whole gearing up for ID Olympic competition feels pretty much 'decided' like it was last Olympic season - and this is not about bashing the team preferred by judges, but the sole circumstance of having this hierarchy created. And before anyone will come after me about conspiracy theories and made-up stuff - I'm referring just to trajectory of both teams shown this season, how their material respectively was evaluated, how 'borders' and progress scores-wise was shaping and everyone can tell the story here, no need to deny it and not taking anything from neither of teams.

and I agree - Tessa and Scott are not really about sadness themselves, but looking outside of that at their position competition-wise it's another story. The momentum is simply not there, but yeah - they stuck to this particular FD concept and the risk did not pay off.

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NoNameFace, I don't mean the following as an attack. I read and enjoy your posts and your appreciation of all teams very much but I would like to know: do you equate "momentum" with pre-decided choice? That means, in my book, that P/C didn't really earn their "good grades" and that V/M were underscored. Really? Nobody was claiming that last year when V/M had a momentum that culminated in a huge score at Worlds. P/C made mistakes but their SD was very good IMO and no need to mention V/Ms FD . AND I AM NOT TRYING TO STIR TROUBLE HERE. V/M are great champions but the ill-will brewing towards P/C when they happen to lose a competition is ugly . I'm just getting annoyed at the double-standards.

peepsquick said:

NoNameFace, I don't mean the following as an attack. I read and enjoy your posts and your appreciation of all teams very much but I would like to know: do you equate "momentum" with pre-decided choice? That means, in my book, that P/C didn't really earn their "good grades" and that V/M were underscored. Really? Nobody was claiming that last year when V/M had a momentum that culminated in a huge score at Worlds. P/C made mistakes but their SD was very good IMO and no need to mention V/Ms FD . AND I AM NOT TRYING TO STIR TROUBLE HERE. V/M are great champions but the ill-will brewing towards P/C when they happen to lose a competition is ugly . I'm just getting annoyed at the double-standards.

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no, 'momentum' was used in respect to Tessa/Scott's trajectory with their own programs this season, not with scores they received so far. I'm really far from stating that any of teams was underscored or overscored at this point - I am way too non-knowledgeable in technical stuff to judge that and due to that, it would be unfair from my side to the teams, that's my view. Lack of 'momentum' refers solely to Tessa/Scott's material and reception of it so far - there is a base build as for solidness there, but there is no progress with it at this point which would lead them to the Olympics; this then can be seen in their scores received from competition to competition.

For me, scores received by both teams - or any team for instance - how they are developing, shaping up could be an indication of having this 'momentum' tendency' for particular duo, but I try to separate each team's 'momentum' itself, seeing in it in separate perspective of the team - I'm not really about statements that some team earned their scores in unjustified way, at the same time connecting it with underscoring of another team as You've pointed. 'Momentum' for me is more individual term than a tool to create double standards there, believe me, especially for teams that different between each other in so many areas, but both bringing the excellence out there.

and to add one more thing - despite of some people could think about my posts (like those above), my intention is NEVER to come after Gabriella/Guillaume or any other team for that matter, I have too much respect for their hard work and dedication towards their skating career, sacrifices made in their lifes and the stuff they're coming with to amaze us. The fact that I like one things more than others does not change that and I'd be ashamed of myself if any bashful post - or post interpreted as such - would come from me towards skaters in person especially. Different taste does not equal for me lack of culture and respect.

NoNameFace said:

no, 'momentum' was used in respect to Tessa/Scott's trajectory with their own programs this season, not with scores they received so far. I'm really far from stating that any of teams was underscored or overscored at this point - I am way too non-knowledgeable in technical stuff to judge that and due to that, it would be unfair from my side to the teams, that's my view. Lack of 'momentum' refers solely to Tessa/Scott's material and reception of it so far - there is a base build as for solidness there, but there is no progress with it at this point which would lead them to the Olympics; this then can be seen in their scores received from competition to competition.

For me, scores received by both teams - or any team for instance - how they are developing, shaping up could be an indication of having this 'momentum' tendency' for particular duo, but I try to separate each team's 'momentum' itself, seeing in it in separate perspective of the team - I'm not really about statements that some team earned their scores in unjustified way, at the same time connecting it with underscoring of another team as You've pointed. 'Momentum' for me is more individual term than a tool to create double standards there, believe me, especially for teams that different between each other in so many areas, but both bringing the excellence out there.

and to add one more thing - despite of some people could think about my posts (like those above), my intention is NEVER to come after Gabriella/Guillaume or any other team for that matter, I have too much respect for their hard work and dedication towards their skating career, sacrifices made in their lifes and the stuff they're coming with to amaze us. The fact that I like one things more than others does not change that and I'd be ashamed of myself if any bashful post - or post interpreted as such - would come from me towards skaters in person especially. Different taste does not equal for me lack of culture and respect.

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Thank you for your comprehensive answer, NoNameFace! You are one of my favorite posters and I always look forward to read what you have to say. I didn't think that you were singling anybody out and my own post was probably a knee-jerk reaction (I read too many mind-boggling reactions on tweeter or Facebook :eeking. I can't help but feel that it is sad to read so many statements that seem to imply that the ID-competition is "fixed". I think it insults the hard work and dedication of all skaters, especially the ones that some think have been "wronged". From what I have gathered, the skaters themselves are very supportive of each other and it is a shame that many of us don't seem to be able to rise to the occasion.

andromache said:

I also love theatricality and I do think V/M's Moulin Rouge is fabulous. But it feels less "profound/important" than Moonlight Sonata. It feels less "profound/important" than Mahler. The theatricality takes away from its raw, human authenticity, which I think is the strongest part of V/M's projection to the audience. It's a top notch program that employs a little too much melodrama (I love melodrama, personally) in comparison to what P/C are doing. Dance is subjective, and plenty of routines are melodramatic, but I think judges (older, more traditional) are more inclined to buy into the "high art" of Moonlight Sonata, when comparing two programs of such high quality.

(The part I feel is missing from the movie is the falling in love part - it just feels incomplete to me.)

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Thank you for explaining.
I guess they do start off as lovers straight away, but I personally dont mind xD