IOC's banning of Russia from 2018 Olympics | Page 16 | Golden Skate

IOC's banning of Russia from 2018 Olympics

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GGFan

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Well you can’t claim a state sponsored doping program exists without proving that the state initiated it. Funding is obviously already there but you’d have to show intentional funding and deception beyond the level of Rodchenkov. Shall we hold WADA and IAAF to the same standard of failing to execute their responsibilities. The IAAF had wrong-doing from its President, Head Anti Doping official, and the son of the President all of whom were encouraging doping and then bribing athletes. We all know that nearly all of the doping happened here. WADA certainly signs commitments when accrediting officials for nations too. When it’s officials cheat like in Sochi the entire organization is responsible by your argument especially considering they tipped rodchenkov off that they were going to investigate the sample bottles a week ahead of time. They tipped off the IAAF years prior to the German documentary came out and never followed up until the story went public.

You're talking legal terms of art now--you have to be very precise with the language. The Schmid commission was rightfully reluctant to find state sponsored doping without a smoking gun. They have no jurisdiction to subpoena anything so it would be hard to investigate that. But, more importantly, they are not required to find state-sponsored doping. There were several subordinated government agencies who engaged in wrongdoing. That's against the Olympic Charter because the Ministry and Committee have an oversight role. Either they knew OR they should have known. That's all you need for vicarious liability to apply.
 

GGFan

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Sad, that you don't know what I'm reffering to... as well as you don't know how the law works. Try google, because if I start to explain I will get another ban. And this is example of true evidence and not what you and others trying to pull up here. I'm not going either. I see no point to discuss other part... by the way, that is why Russian officials and many others keeping silence - useless, it has been said millions of times already.., I just want to note that I'm not talking about the US v Russia. I'm talking about that what is permitted for one is not allowed for others. Is that clear enough now?

There was ample time for Russia to submit evidence. I'm sure they had/have many fine lawyers. If they have something that was not reviewed they can submit it to CAS.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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You're talking legal terms of art now--you have to be very precise with the language.

My family holiday dinners are graced with a sitting judge and two attorneys...one of which is a sports attorney who specializes in contracts. Making ill worded assumptions and not having a solid line of reasoning can lead to me hiding my head in the gravy :laugh:

I don’t think you should be so put off by people doubting aspects of this investigation. I for one try my best to quote and use the investigation’s and evidence made available to reach my conclusion and I’m more than willing to entertain discussion. Btw: I have no conclusion yet...I think Rodchenkov was most certainly Doping athletes. Did he actually act as an engine or a passenger...well...that’s where I’m not so certain.
 

GGFan

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My family holiday dinners are graced with a sitting judge and two attorneys...one of which is a sports attorney who specializes in contracts. Making ill worded assumptions and not having a solid line of reasoning can lead to me hiding my head in the gravy :laugh:

I don’t think you should be so put off by people doubting aspects of this investigation. I for one try my best to quote and use the investigation’s and evidence made available to reach my conclusion and I’m more than willing to entertain discussion. Btw: I have no conclusion yet...I think Rodchenkov was most certainly Doping athletes. Did he actually act as an engine or a passenger...well...that’s where I’m not so certain.

Lawyers and holiday discussions :noshake::laugh2:

I always think we should question things. My points more have to do with two related things: 1) questioning evidence by saying a witness is bad or self-serving--that happens all the time and we don't care if their evidence is corroborated and then 2) arguing that there's an anti-Russia conspiracy without offering any evidence. If the Swiss can't be trusted to be impartial who can? :dev2:

That doesn't mean that I don't realize that the IOC and WADA got caught flat footed here, have many conflicts of interest, and have often been less than serious about their anti-doping efforts.
 

luckyguy

Match Penalty
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Jan 25, 2008
There was ample time for Russia to submit evidence. I'm sure they had/have many fine lawyers. If they have something that was not reviewed they can submit it to CAS.
I don't know if the lawyers had ample time. The Schmid Report is from 2017-12-02. One of the lawyers openly speaks of a secret jurisprudence because nobody knows on which statements and evidence the reports of Schmid and Oswald are based.
https://de.sputniknews.com/sport/20...nter-rodtschenkows-enthuellungen-wieschemann/ (in German)

Please read as well what he says about the Oswald Commission.
IOC condemns athletes without evidence. Judgement scandalous.
http://wieschemann.eu/en/ioc-verurteilt-athleten-ohne-beweise-urteil-skandaloes
 

GGFan

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I don't know if the lawyers had ample time. The Schmid Report is from 2017-12-02. One of the lawyers openly speaks of a secret jurisprudence because nobody knows on which statements and evidence the reports of Schmid and Oswald are based.
https://de.sputniknews.com/sport/20...nter-rodtschenkows-enthuellungen-wieschemann/ (in German)

Please read as well what he says about the Oswald Commission.
IOC condemns athletes without evidence. Judgement scandalous.
http://wieschemann.eu/en/ioc-verurteilt-athleten-ohne-beweise-urteil-skandaloes

Ample time to submit evidence before the Report was completed. This process has been ongoing for several years and they could have made their case. All that we've gotten is a character assassination of Rodchenkov and allegations of an international conspiracy. Russia can appeal the decision to CAS and then the Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland.
 

Osmond4gold

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Zhukov just suggested holding alternative olympics for athlete who refuse to perform under neutral flag.

https://www.sports.ru/biathlon/1058239723.html

Basically this means that anyone who goes will be labeled as traitor.

Hmmm, lets see, so we did nothing wrong...ahem... and lets have our own games to spite, the Olympics. Perhaps the olive branch to let those clean to compete, should be rescinded.

Just saying.
 

beachmouse

On the Ice
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Jan 23, 2017
It is common for the testers to not give out technical information on their anti-doping advances in order to stay ahead of the dirty athletes. There was a more accurate test for EPO that they suddenly put into place for, I think Salt Lake City that took out a bunch of Nordic skiers from an assortment of passports who had though they had a regime that would let them dope and still test clean. So really not weird for WADA to refuse to give out information on how to tamper with a sample bottle that is supposed to be tamper-proof.

Thee's also the idea that a nation is responsible for making sure the athletes they send to international competition are clean and that they can be sanctioned if their anti-doping efforts are seen as insufficient. CAS is okay with this- weightlifting currently has 9 nations under international ban because too many of their athletes have had positive drug tests in international competition within a specific time frame, even though there is no evidence of state-sponsored doping programs in any of them. This is also done with the encouragement of the IOC, which has threatened to remove the sport from the Summer Olympics unless the doping problem is significantly curtailed.

Aquatics has a '4 strikes in 2 years' rule, at which time a national federation may be suspended from international competition. Thing is, effectively only a WADA test or a test from an international competition counts as a strike- they don't want to discourage federations from testing down regularly and weeding out the dopers before they get to the international level. And it works in many cases- the countries that are currently seen as bad actors at their respective national levels have far fewer drug positives at international meetings than what their anti-doping reports at the national and regional level would suggest.
 

Alex D

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Sep 23, 2013
I think that one major problem is that whole system. It sounds so hard to believe or easy, depending which side you pick. But if it´s truly so easy to manipulate doping samples, then the Russians are surely not the only ones, who could figure that out.

Something else is the lack of evidence, in regards of positive samples. Obviously there had to be positive ones, to exchange them, but where are they now?

If I read the report and think about how easy it is to fake doping samples, then this questions the integrity of our all sports and this is very worrying. Besides that, if I see what athletes have to endure at events these days... gosh, this is unlike anything i experienced.
 

GGFan

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I think that one major problem is that whole system. It sounds so hard to believe or easy, depending which side you pick. But if it´s truly so easy to manipulate doping samples, then the Russians are surely not the only ones, who could figure that out.

Something else is the lack of evidence, in regards of positive samples. Obviously there had to be positive ones, to exchange them, but where are they now?

If I read the report and think about how easy it is to fake doping samples, then this questions the integrity of our all sports and this is very worrying. Besides that, if I see what athletes have to endure at events these days... gosh, this is unlike anything i experienced.

It's easy in a sense especially when we're talking about microdoping. We still have no idea how many athletes are engaging in this. We basically just hope that they slip up or a more sensitive test catches them in the act.

With regards to what happened at Sochi you need deep pockets and very heavy coordination. The vials were supposed to be tamper resistant and it took quite a bit of ingenuity to figure out. There were also lots of independent scientists there and cameras all around. That was a very sophisticated operation.

Regardless of what happens on the scientific side there's always going to be a big weakness in any system: human beings. There is always someone to be paid off or some error that will be made. Human beings are also endlessly inventive especially when there's a big reward at stake (medals, money, prestige, etc.).
 

yude

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Feb 28, 2012
I have seen the video about the press conference but the owner deleted it . The interpreter translated wrongly after Kolyada's words I heard with my own ears.. Nathan seemed surprised a little bit after the interpeter words.

It was good that ISU officially corrected the translation of his words. I hope the same thing won't happen again and wish we could have more reliable interpreter like the one who worked with Plushenko in P&G event in Japan, she had worked for Putin when he came to Japan.
 

moriel

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Mar 18, 2015
Hmmm, lets see, so we did nothing wrong...ahem... and lets have our own games to spite, the Olympics. Perhaps the olive branch to let those clean to compete, should be rescinded.

Just saying.

Well, not really. Some selected quotes from the interview:
- "the ones who want to go to the Olympics under neutral flag cannot be accused of lack of patriotism"
- "for the ones who *choose* not to go, we should run an alternative competition"
- "we should support the ones who go [...] if we dont support them, it would be totally wrong"
- "we cannot force our own opinions to the athletes"
- "each athlete must decide by himself"
- "we hear voices against the ones who are willing to go. This is unacceptable"

tl;dr he thinks that each athlete should decide by himself, and russia should support whoever chooses to go, and whoever chooses to not go.

Which sounds like a VERY sensible talk to me. There is also no mention of spite or clean in the article.
 

volk

Final Flight
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Dec 24, 2007
Well, not really. Some selected quotes from the interview:
- "the ones who want to go to the Olympics under neutral flag cannot be accused of lack of patriotism"
- "for the ones who *choose* not to go, we should run an alternative competition"
- "we should support the ones who go [...] if we dont support them, it would be totally wrong"
- "we cannot force our own opinions to the athletes"
- "each athlete must decide by himself"
- "we hear voices against the ones who are willing to go. This is unacceptable"

tl;dr he thinks that each athlete should decide by himself, and russia should support whoever chooses to go, and whoever chooses to not go.

Which sounds like a VERY sensible talk to me. There is also no mention of spite or clean in the article.

Don't forget that it's just a few months before presidential elections. They don't want to divide the country and create chaos. Even Putin said that we should become overly emotional in this issue.
 

Tahuu

On the Ice
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Dec 3, 2014
It seems Russia is accepting IOC decision and will pay the fines. I think it’s reasonable to allow OAR to carry Russian flag at the closing ceremony as these are clean athletes. It would encourage all the best and clean Russian athletes to come and compete.
 

luckyguy

Match Penalty
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Jan 25, 2008
New ISU statement:
...The ISU also confirms that in line with the decision of other Winter IFs, the ISU European Speed Skating Championships in Kolomna and the ISU European Figure Skating Championships in Moscow, will both be organized and held in January 2018 as planned. The ISU anti-doping testing for these Championships will be carried out by international (not Russian) independent sample collection authorities with the analysis of the samples carried out at WADA accredited laboratories outside Russia. ...
http://www.isu.org/news/145-news/11...-european-championships-2018?templateParam=15
 

ancientpeas

The Notorious SEW
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Jan 11, 2014
Okay.. I don't know if this has been discussed earlier but what implications does this have for the team event? Right now I'm assuming Russia can compete as a team just not under their own flag and they will be called the Olympic team? In that case I think they should have the right to get Javi. I say this because I want Javi to have a medal and skating for the Olympic team(Russia) would get him one. (The last part about Javi was said tongue in cheek btw)

Actually.. in Rio several countries competed under the neutral flag didn't they? So theoretically if one of those countries had say a fantastic goalie for the women's hockey team could they join the Russian women?
 

moriel

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Mar 18, 2015
Okay.. I don't know if this has been discussed earlier but what implications does this have for the team event? Right now I'm assuming Russia can compete as a team just not under their own flag and they will be called the Olympic team? In that case I think they should have the right to get Javi. I say this because I want Javi to have a medal and skating for the Olympic team(Russia) would get him one. (The last part about Javi was said tongue in cheek btw)

Actually.. in Rio several countries competed under the neutral flag didn't they? So theoretically if one of those countries had say a fantastic goalie for the women's hockey team could they join the Russian women?

Actually, i suppose Javi, if he competes under neutral flag, could join the olympic team at the team event, if there is such.
Not sure if he would do that, but could be interesting.

Or they could just allow all athletes from small feds to join the Olympic team, that would be fun.
 

luckyguy

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Actually, i suppose Javi, if he competes under neutral flag, could join the olympic team at the team event, if there is such.
Not sure if he would do that, but could be interesting.

Or they could just allow all athletes from small feds to join the Olympic team, that would be fun.

I don't think it is possible to skate as a neutral athlete in the team competition, and later to represent Spain. It is not logical. But we will see.
 
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