Standards set by skater contributions? | Golden Skate

Standards set by skater contributions?

GGFan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 9, 2013
I just went down a Lambiel rabbit hole and I of course I was amazed all over again like it was the first time. Despite its flaws, the William Tell SP is still one of the greatest short programs in Olympic history in my book. His spins were flawless that day! And the musicality of that footwork :love: So complete in every way! :clap:

I don't know if I usually see Stephane on the SS masters list with Yuka and Patrick but I think he belongs there. He could do everything with his blade, and he completely committed to his movement.

I'm just buttering him up because I have some beef with him. As I was watching him glide across the ice and turning effortlessly from side to side realized that I have him to thank for all of these turn heavy programs. On him it completely works. It's completely musical, appropriate, and masterful. On most other skaters :slink:

I have similar issues with Jeff Buttle and his transitions. :bow: Cute and all when he did it, but now we're stuck with all of these people huffing and puffing trying to fill their programs with transitions that do not work with their programs. :noshake:

And this is where the twist comes in: all of this is low-key a criticism of a system that tries to capture individuality in a set of standards. By writing down said rules it incentivizes everyone to try things that they have no business doing :coffee:

I would love to hear more examples of this phenomena. Bielmann spin comes to mind :laugh:
 
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Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
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Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
The title is winky. I just went down a Lambiel rabbit hole and I of course I was amazed all over again like it was the first time. Despite its flaws, the William Tell SP is still one of the greatest short programs in Olympic history in my book. His spins were flawless that day! And the musicality of that footwork :love: So complete in every way! :clap:

I don't know if I usually see Stephane on the SS masters list with Yuka and Patrick but I think he belongs there. He could do everything with his blade, and he completely committed to his movement.

I'm just buttering him up because I have some beef with him. As I was watching him glide across the ice and turning effortlessly from side to side realized that I have him to thank for all of these turn heavy programs. On him it completely works. It's completely musical, appropriate, and masterful. On most other skaters :slink:

I have similar issues with Jeff Buttle and his transitions. :bow: Cute and all when he did it, but now we're stuck with all of these people huffing and puffing trying to fill their programs with transitions that do not work with their programs. :noshake:

And this is where the twist comes in: all of this is low-key a criticism of a system that tries to capture individuality in a set of standards. By writing down said rules it incentivizes everyone to try things that they have no business doing :coffee:

I would love to hear more examples of this phenomena. Bielmann spin comes to mind :laugh:

Complicated turns and edgework: Jeremy Abbott is guilty for that too. ;)
 

SarahSynchro

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Country
Canada
Regarding Jeffery, His blade work always seemed so effortless, like second nature.

Sometimes, I feel like a lot of today’s top skaters have a way of making it seem like not only are they rushing, but also thinking too hard through their transitions. It’s like you can see it on their faces: “ok... RFO rocker, LBI counter, LBO loop, chocktow, illusion dip, spread eagle, walley, another counter, set up for 3F, jump, land, right into a spread eagle, now restart transitional turn sequence setup before the next jump, repeat, repeat... etc, etc.
 

medoroa

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
I agree, and I also blame Lambiel for the awkward, ugly spin positions that aren't even unique anymore because everyone's doing them, but get points as if they were unique!

(Love ya, Stephane.)
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
I'm just buttering him up because I have some beef with him. As I was watching him glide across the ice and turning effortlessly from side to side realized that I have him to thank for all of these turn heavy programs. On him it completely works. It's completely musical, appropriate, and masterful. On most other skaters :slink:

I have similar issues with Jeff Buttle and his transitions. :bow: Cute and all when he did it, but now we're stuck with all of these people huffing and puffing trying to fill their programs with transitions that do not work with their programs. :noshake:
And this is where the twist comes in: all of this is low-key a criticism of a system that tries to capture individuality in a set of standards. By writing down said rules it incentivizes everyone to try things that they have no business doing

It really depends how you look at it. If all you want to see are just good lines and positions and connection with the mysic rythms and nuancies of the music, fine. But than you have other factors as speed and motions and connection with the ice which must be considered, and someone will argue how with those you are showing truly skating mastery... Programmes we are seeing on the ice are in first place skating programmes, not music programmes, so every turn on ice bring something. Variations on upper body positions and diifferent kind of movements are important because they can create different total picture of same things all skater are doing on the ice, including required tech elements. That is also awarded because it contributes to general watchability of FS programmes, that is to insure we cant see people doing exactly the same things again and agian, which would be boring to watch. Variations are highly rewarded by current rulles and you can gain same amount of points by different ways. That can be tricky, cause like i said at the begining, some people value only one way...
 

mrrice

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
I definitely think the rule changes are to blame. The more defined the rules become, the more that skaters will attempt to do whichever move gets them the most points. Whether or not the move is attractive....That's a different story. Before spirals were devalued, we saw some hideous positions but, skaters did them because they got points. It's that simple. Stephane did all those variations because they helped him with his TES. He needed those scores to keep him ahead of skaters like Plushy who was a better jumper and Jeffery Buttle who, IMO, had better programs and was frankly, a better skater.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Sometimes a move becomes popular because a skater gets top GOE marks and level 4 for it. Skaters will give the Move a try. If when skaters try it, it is easier for them than whatever else they are doing, you will see the darn thing everywhere...everywhere.

Papadakis & Cizeron did this for the Stationary Lift. Almost no one did it except Carron & Jones. P&C got level 4 and plus 3 and now practically every ice dance program has at least one. I could do with a lot fewer Stationary Lifts.

OTOH I have yet to see any other team do Davis and White's opening lift from their Olympic FD.

Clearly not all level 4 skills are equally difficult.
 
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Ares

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Feb 22, 2016
Country
Poland
I definitely think the rule changes are to blame. The more defined the rules become, the more that skaters will attempt to do whichever move gets them the most points. Whether or not the move is attractive....That's a different story. Before spirals were devalued, we saw some hideous positions but, skaters did them because they got points. It's that simple. Stephane did all those variations because they helped him with his TES. He needed those scores to keep him ahead of skaters like Plushy who was a better jumper and Jeffery Buttle who, IMO, had better programs and was frankly, a better skater.

One of the differences that can be seen is that back in that time when Lambiel still competed there were different rules for step sequences: like mandatory straight line step sequence. We don’t see any straight line step sequences anymore in competitive programs unless as a form of in-between choreography or choreographic sequence - technical element (but still only semblance of it). I find straight line step sequence more enjoyable to watch than many contemporary, convoluted ones that drone on and sometimes seem neverending (albeit there are still some absolutely beautiful nowadays).
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
There hasn't been a mandatory straight-line step sequence since the 1980s short programs that used to require a specific shape.

From 1989 through the beginnings of IJS, skaters had a choice of three general shapes of step sequence: straight line, circular, and serpentine (two or three large curves in an S shape filling the length of the rink). Of course in junior and senior men's short programs during that time and for some of that time the senior men's freeskate two step sequences were required -- most skaters chose straight line and circular to save time.

Ilia Kulik for one usually chose circular and serpentine, so he didn't have a straight-line sequence at all.

What was mandatory was that whichever shape they chose the general shape of the pattern should be evident, and backtracking or looping around was often not allowed.

Now it doesn't really matter what pattern you choose, as long as you fill the length of the ice or fill the width at least twice.
 

mrrice

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
It would be interesting to see what a skater like Yagudin would do with his steps now that back loading has become such a point getter. Do you think he'd place his great steps in the first half and jump in the second half???
 

plushyfan

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Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
I agree, and I also blame Lambiel for the awkward, ugly spin positions that aren't even unique anymore because everyone's doing them, but get points as if they were unique!

(Love ya, Stephane.)

I don't know what are you talking about..:)I didn't see one ugly spin from Lambiel. :no: Plus not so long time ago he criticised the spins today he doesn't care about the levels he just wants to see beautiful spins! And those don't receive high levels in every case!


One of the differences that can be seen is that back in that time when Lambiel still competed there were different rules for step sequences: like mandatory straight line step sequence. We don’t see any straight line step sequences anymore in competitive programs unless as a form of in-between choreography or choreographic sequence - technical element (but still only semblance of it). I find straight line step sequence more enjoyable to watch than many contemporary, convoluted ones that drone on and sometimes seem neverending (albeit there are still some absolutely beautiful nowadays).

This was posted some days ago https://twitter.com/plushenkolove12/status/949251944802996225 Joubert, Dai, Plush, Yags. Thousands of likes and retweets! It seems the Fs fans liked that old footworks!
 

Ares

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Country
Poland
There hasn't been a mandatory straight-line step sequence since the 1980s short programs that used to require a specific shape.

From 1989 through the beginnings of IJS, skaters had a choice of three general shapes of step sequence: straight line, circular, and serpentine (two or three large curves in an S shape filling the length of the rink). Of course in junior and senior men's short programs during that time and for some of that time the senior men's freeskate two step sequences were required -- most skaters chose straight line and circular to save time.

Ilia Kulik for one usually chose circular and serpentine, so he didn't have a straight-line sequence at all.

What was mandatory was that whichever shape they chose the general shape of the pattern should be evident, and backtracking or looping around was often not allowed.

Now it doesn't really matter what pattern you choose, as long as you fill the length of the ice or fill the width at least twice.


Ok, I correct myself ... but there were still different demands in 6.0 or early COP that encouraged skaters to do straight line step sequence as one of their possible choices. Nowadays you won't get high level for that.
 

shine

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Actually I don't know if Lambiel could be blamed for the steps. If anything I would say Takahashi was probably the main man to blame because of the utter bravura, even though I don't think his steps were necessarily better than Lambiel's. It's just that Lambiel’s steps were so underrated compare to his spins, which are usually what people mention when they talk about him. But really he WAS a master at the steps. Actually I love his steps from the La Traviata LP of the same year even more. I used to say he was doing COP step sequences even before the COP time and he did them with way more authenticity and fluidity than most men do them today. He also used to do the two step sequences back to back when two were required in the SP, and the musicality, full-body expressiveness and abandon he did them with was always a beauty to behold. Those serpentine steps he did that went around the entire ice surface neverfelt long when he did them, but i can't really see skaters doing them with the current rules. His 2005 and 2006 SPs from worlds are perfect examples of that.


Also agree about Jeremy Abbott. His 2010 SP steps were simply out . of . this . world.

I also agree about Jeff Buttle and the word "transitions". I think it's almost safe to say he and his David Wilson programs single-handely made that word relevant in mens' skating and served as a turning point from quad/jump-centric programs of the Yagudin/Plushenko days to more choreography/transition rich programs and allowed skaters who didn't have a quad or a consistent quad to have a chance to shine. And it also caused the mass flocking to Wilson from then on.

I don't know what are you talking about..:)I didn't see one ugly spin from Lambiel. :no: Plus not so long time ago he criticised the spins today he doesn't care about the levels he just wants to see beautiful spins! And those don't receive high levels in every case!
I don't think medoroa was saying Lambiel had ugly spins - in fact, probably the opposite. She's saying Lambiel spins were what later inspired many skaters to emulate in order to get the spin levels because they were so good, but most skaters just can't do them like him.
 

mrrice

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Oh the legacy of the butt spin. We've all suffered because of it. :drama::laugh2:

Except when Eman did it.....I'm telling you, that spin was the coolest thing when did it and I have never seen anyone come close since....
 

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset
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Aug 12, 2014
Country
United-States
Biellman spins. I hate them. I never liked them much, but now that everyone has to do them in order to get the points, I have a permanent grudge against them.

The only one I like is a sort of half Biellman?, not the hair-cutter but with leg stretched but not above about head level. Jason Brown does a lovely one, and IIRC, Carolina Kostner also has a beautiful one in her program this year. Lovely and so refreshing.
 

Alifyre

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 29, 2017
This was posted some days ago https://twitter.com/plushenkolove12/status/949251944802996225 Joubert, Dai, Plush, Yags. Thousands of likes and retweets! It seems the Fs fans liked that old footworks!

I am a newbie to the sport and really only am truly familiar with the last two seasons of skating, so perhaps this is a bit silly, but it really looks like skaters previously had a lot more... freedom with their footwork? There are some really nice step sequences floating around nowadays, and certainly most of them are distinct. However, a lot of modern stsq do seem to have a lot in common with one another, I imagine because of the strict requirements for levels. These older programs, on the other hand, look a little less... technical (a lot more walking on the toe picks, I noticed!) but also a lot more varied. Or perhaps I'm seeing wrong? Would more seasoned fans maybe comment on the that?
 

GGFan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 9, 2013
I am a newbie to the sport and really only am truly familiar with the last two seasons of skating, so perhaps this is a bit silly, but it really looks like skaters previously had a lot more... freedom with their footwork? There are some really nice step sequences floating around nowadays, and certainly most of them are distinct. However, a lot of modern stsq do seem to have a lot in common with one another, I imagine because of the strict requirements for levels. These older programs, on the other hand, look a little less... technical (a lot more walking on the toe picks, I noticed!) but also a lot more varied. Or perhaps I'm seeing wrong? Would more seasoned fans maybe comment on the that?

I'll wait for gkelly or one of our other specialists to tell you the intricacies. From my point of view these are the issues: 1) Yes, there was more freedom once upon a time to come up with something more uniquely you which I loved, but 2) the downside was that you could also get some very simplistic footwork and because everything boiled down to two marks we couldn't tell who was getting credit for great footwork and who was getting away with simple steps.

Thus, you didn't have the direct feedback you have today or the amount of guidance to improve. Because 6.0 was in the past myself and others tend to only remember the highlights and forget the problems. It's very human :biggrin:

Now the skaters generally know what they need to do to get the points but the downside might be the lack of uniqueness on average. Exceptional and creative skaters will always find a way to transcend.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
I guess we can credit Elaine Zayak for the limits to replicating or duplicating jumps. We can thank Nancy Kerrigan for making Vera Wang one of the designers in skating. Denise Bielleman for the Biellman spin and its many version further heightened by COP rules. For all the yelling and screaming about the 2002 SLC judging scandal for COP and a scoring system that the average viewer can't figure out. Nancy Kerrigan for popularizing the spiral. Katarina Witt for playing to the audience. Rudi Galindo for flamboyant skating - okay maybe Toller Cranston started that. None of these were necessarily bad.
 
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