Standards set by skater contributions?

shine said:

Also agree about Jeremy Abbott. His 2010 SP steps were simply out . of . this . world.

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While I loved that program. This one with the step seq is hands down the best ever!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oeya_bPe53Y

Ic3Rabbit said:

While I loved that program. This one with the step seq is hands down the best ever!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oeya_bPe53Y

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Just masterful! He transported me back to the movie Swing Kids, which I haven't seen in years but love. I'm not sure how he accomplished that on ice. :confused2: Thanks for the reminder.

ETA: Memory is hilarious. I would probably hate the movie now because of its cheesiness. The program however is still a masterpiece.

Alifyre said:

I am a newbie to the sport and really only am truly familiar with the last two seasons of skating, so perhaps this is a bit silly, but it really looks like skaters previously had a lot more... freedom with their footwork? There are some really nice step sequences floating around nowadays, and certainly most of them are distinct. However, a lot of modern stsq do seem to have a lot in common with one another, I imagine because of the strict requirements for levels. These older programs, on the other hand, look a little less... technical (a lot more walking on the toe picks, I noticed!) but also a lot more varied. Or perhaps I'm seeing wrong? Would more seasoned fans maybe comment on the that?

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Yes, definitely. I'm biased because 90s to early 00s is my favorite period of figure skating, and certainly GGFan is right that there were tons of step sequences around that amounted to nothing but a skater running from one end of the rink to another! But a lot of skaters did know that putting on a unique stsq well-timed to the music would make a difference in the marks, and because the requirements were so loose, you got people trying out a lot of different styles. People often mention Yagudin's Winter steps, but he did a lot of distinct stsq that matched the theme of his programs (Gladiator, Racing, etc.), and some of my favorite stsq is in Abt's 2000-2002 SP where he does two great stsq that are totally different in style but both great and matching the music well. I also remember Dmitri Dmitrenko doing a stsq all on one foot in his Peter Gabriel program... but not because the rules required it of him to get 0.5 points more, just because he thought it was interesting and he wanted to stand out and show people something unique (it is Dmitrenko we're talking about I also remember him doing a controlled edge change in a camel spin but again, not to meet a level requirement).

Going back to the topic of this post, Yagudin (and Morozov) is definitely to blame for a lot of awful step sequences in early IJS and particularly to blame for Joubert's awful, awful step sequences in that video!!!

Sorry, I can't allow this thread to continue without bringing this skater and program into it.
The footwork is miles above the rest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDNgFGdrxYk

medoroa said:

Yes, definitely. I'm biased because 90s to early 00s is my favorite period of figure skating, and certainly GGFan is right that there were tons of step sequences around that amounted to nothing but a skater running from one end of the rink to another! But a lot of skaters did know that putting on a unique stsq well-timed to the music would make a difference in the marks, and because the requirements were so loose, you got people trying out a lot of different styles. People often mention Yagudin's Winter steps, but he did a lot of distinct stsq that matched the theme of his programs (Gladiator, Racing, etc.), and some of my favorite stsq is in Abt's 2000-2002 SP where he does two great stsq that are totally different in style but both great and matching the music well. I also remember Dmitri Dmitrenko doing a stsq all on one foot in his Peter Gabriel program... but not because the rules required it of him to get 0.5 points more, just because he thought it was interesting and he wanted to stand out and show people something unique (it is Dmitrenko we're talking about I also remember him doing a controlled edge change in a camel spin but again, not to meet a level requirement).

Going back to the topic of this post, Yagudin (and Morozov) is definitely to blame for a lot of awful step sequences in early IJS and particularly to blame for Joubert's awful, awful step sequences in that video!!!

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Yaassssss! Racing is a perfect example of being able to have an artistic point of view that is approachable to the masses.. I was so excited to see his programs and artistic direction post-gold medal, but those stupid hip problems! :sad4: Luckily he's still skating

Joubert was the perfect example of needing to leave the original alone. I wanted to kill Morozov for several years.

Ic3Rabbit said:

Sorry, I can't allow this thread to continue without bringing this skater and program into it.
The footwork is miles above the rest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDNgFGdrxYk

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Calling a foul here! :ddevil: There's nothing to blame Kurt for. All of the stuff he did (quads, ridiculous footwork) was not replicated until years later, so he has plausible deniability

And I think Javi's short this season might be one of the few programs that matches Kurt for overall charm and commitment to acting. So yea Kurt basically did things that folks couldn't match.

GGFan said:

Calling a foul here! :ddevil: There's nothing to blame Kurt for. All of the stuff he did (quads, ridiculous footwork) was not replicated until years later, so he has plausible deniability

And I think Javi's short this season might be one of the few programs that matches Kurt for overall charm and commitment to acting. So yea Kurt basically did things that folks couldn't match.

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Hence why I posted Kurt, he’s basically untouchable and unique.

Stephane was not to blame for complex, interesting spins. He was at the end of a long line of exceptional Swiss spinners.

The first I was aware of was 1981 world champion Denise Biellmann. Her 1981 Worlds FS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucCMZffihRA

The next I knew of was Nathalie Krieg. Here is her 1992 Skate Canada FS, where the commentators discuss her spinning at length. Nathalie apparently trained at public skating sessions, where it was considerably easier to get room to practice spins than jumps. At the time, she had the Guinness world record for longest spins.

Note that Eman did not invent the butt spin, and also that changes of position in a spin can express the moods and changes in the music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCFJR2mBdKA

Here are her spins at the 1994 Olympics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnoRJ8gZpZU

Lucinda Ruh, then, was the next great Swiss spinner:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ_ou7cSY_I

When COP spins were required, skaters looked to the innovations of these remarkable Swiss ladies. for ideas and inspiration!

The Aboriginal programme was crazy weird....I still have no idea what the rationale was behind it. Only thing I can think of is that with Aus having virtually no presence at Winter Olympics, this maybe seemed like a “safe” culture to portray without insulting anyone “important”. Sure, the Aboriginals here whined on and on and on (and on...and onnnnn..) but I gotta say it was probably a smart move in terms of not offending any of the judging panel/host audience members etc. I mean, people are already criticising Bradie for not properly interpreting the plight of Koreans or something in her SP so yeah, as far as the choice when picking a cultural group to imitate goes - points for trying


I’m not certain if he was indeed the first one to do this, but if so, then I credit Johnny Weir with making “let’s pretend to be a bird” a thing that for some reason is considered the height of artistry.
I’m not lumping anything like Swan Lake in with this group, this is strictly the “Imma dress either like a carrier of Bird Flu or wear a tonne of feathers and a fancy glove and when I play Shadow Puppets *BAM* ART HAS HAPPENED” movement here.

Like....are y’all supposed to be birds for the entire programme? If so, why does your *beak* then become a wing? Are you a magic bird or a deformed bird? What if one of the judges just can’t shake the image of a squawking, swooping FLYING RAT when they see you?

Heck, Zagitova plays a conflicted swan, and at 15 she doesn’t resort to pantomiming. Her bird doesn’t, oh, wear a yellow glove at the start of the skate, incorporate the Chicken Dance into the footwork to REALLY let us know of the inner turmoil, spin whilst miming the reading of “self-help for swans” all before a costume change to reveal a white glove that can become a bird face right at the end.

I just don’t get why you’d ruin a gorgeous programme by a weird attempt at mimicking, or why so many viewers love this stuff yet despise other miming works.

dorispulaski said:

Whole post

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Thanks for giving the Swiss ladies props. They were able to hit a sweet spot in their blades that is so rare. To this day I'm still trying to figure out if something was in the water or if it was the chocolate (more likely the hard work!)

ETA: Did Krieg even have a spine?? Her back is the most supple thing ever. She could the pearl position more than once in the same spin! :eeking:

Nathalie claimed it was the reluctance of public session skaters to give you enough room to seriously practice jumps.

GrandmaCC said:

I’m not certain if he was indeed the first one to do this, but if so, then I credit Johnny Weir with making “let’s pretend to be a bird” a thing that for some reason is considered the height of artistry.
I’m not lumping anything like Swan Lake in with this group, this is strictly the “Imma dress either like a carrier of Bird Flu or wear a tonne of feathers and a fancy glove and when I play Shadow Puppets *BAM* ART HAS HAPPENED” movement here.

Like....are y’all supposed to be birds for the entire programme? If so, why does your *beak* then become a wing? Are you a magic bird or a deformed bird? What if one of the judges just can’t shake the image of a squawking, swooping FLYING RAT when they see you?

Heck, Zagitova plays a conflicted swan, and at 15 she doesn’t resort to pantomiming. Her bird doesn’t, oh, wear a yellow glove at the start of the skate, incorporate the Chicken Dance into the footwork to REALLY let us know of the inner turmoil, spin whilst miming the reading of “self-help for swans” all before a costume change to reveal a white glove that can become a bird face right at the end.

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I love Adam's program (he does it better than Johnny or even Karen) but this is the rant of the week! Dead!

Ic3Rabbit said:

While I loved that program. This one with the step seq is hands down the best ever!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oeya_bPe53Y

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Yes, both of those programs are absolute masterpieces to me. And even this SP from 2007-08 earlier in his career showed such unique and musical steps https://youtu.be/mJ4XAcIbRe4 choreographed, incidentally, by Kurt Browning

BTW not all dance lift emulations work out well. Sometimes a relatively simple lift can be done so much better by a top team that it discourages the others. A relatively basic level 4 rotational lift is the one where the lady puts her foot/leg on the man's shoulder while she is in a split position. The guy then rotates.

You used to see this everywhere. However, getting +3 is a lot harder than it used to be, after Davis and White' s version in their Der Fledermaus routine. Here was that FD's first outing at Skate America 2011:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An3BjDDzk1A

How did she get up there out of nowhere? How come her lower leg isn't about six inches off the ice but is instead parallel to the ice? How did he spin so fast?


It was a shock, particularly if you were in the rink and could not catch the mechanics of it as easily as in the above video.

The Russian? commentator cannot resist saying in a low, breathless voice, "Wow!"

More people tried it, but weren't getting that +3. And D&W used it somewhere or other in programs for several years.

You do not see it quite as much any more. And when you do, it is not as likely to get +3 as it used to.

GrandmaCC said:

The Aboriginal programme was crazy weird....I still have no idea what the rationale was behind it. Only thing I can think of is that with Aus having virtually no presence at Winter Olympics, this maybe seemed like a “safe” culture to portray without insulting anyone “important”. Sure, the Aboriginals here whined on and on and on (and on...and onnnnn..) but I gotta say it was probably a smart move in terms of not offending any of the judging panel/host audience members etc. I mean, people are already criticising Bradie for not properly interpreting the plight of Koreans or something in her SP so yeah, as far as the choice when picking a cultural group to imitate goes - points for trying

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*Gasp* If this is in fact true, they clearly did not do ANY research into the hundreds of years of conflict that is still ongoing to this day in Canada between the aboriginal/First Nations population and the “of European origin” population, whose ancestors were the settlers who “founded” the country. Cultural appropriation is also a big deal here that creates a lot of controversy and discussion. That particular ice dance program was torn apart in the Canadian media and by the general public back in 2010, rightfully so.

A not so fun fact: The last residential school for First Nations children in Canada was permanently closed in 1997, only 13 years prior to the Vancouver Olympic Games. Let that sink in for a minute for some perspective. For those who are not aware of what a residential school is, their purpose was to remove young First Nations children from their families and communities in order to “take the savage out of the child” and assimilate them to speak, think, act, and have the same religious/spiritual beliefs as white people. Physical and sexual abuse were rampant in these facilities. It is a horrific blemish on our country’s history.

Edited to add: please please PLEASE don’t confuse this demographic for speaking out about their legitimate experiences as “whining, complaining and selfishness”. Who are any of us to critique the systemic, repulsive treatment they have dealt with since the 1500s?

Alifyre said:

it really looks like skaters previously had a lot more... freedom with their footwork? There are some really nice step sequences floating around nowadays, and certainly most of them are distinct. However, a lot of modern stsq do seem to have a lot in common with one another, I imagine because of the strict requirements for levels. These older programs, on the other hand, look a little less... technical (a lot more walking on the toe picks, I noticed!) but also a lot more varied. Or perhaps I'm seeing wrong? Would more seasoned fans maybe comment on the that?

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You are exactly correct, for the reasons GGFan explains.

Originally there were no rules for step sequences, or even requirements for them to exist. In the 1970s and 80s step sequences with specific patterns (straight line, circular, or serpentine) were required in short programs. Starting in 1989 women were required to do a spiral sequence in their short programs as well as one step sequence; men's SPs required two step sequences. That remained true through 2010.

Freeskates were pretty free until the mid-1990s, when the ISU started introducing well-balanced program guidelines that became requirements, including step sequences, a few years later. Most skaters did include step sequences in their freeskates before then, but they could use that sequence to showcase whatever their best skills were or whatever best supported the music and the concept of the program.

Judges did have guidelines for what they looked for in step sequences: speed across the ice, quickness and precision of steps, edge quality, turns in both directions, variety of steps and turns, choreography and timing to the music, etc., and adhering to a clear pattern when that was required. Skaters could showcase whatever they did best, and judges could reward the good aspects and not-reward or penalize the weaker aspects of the footwork, but the scoring was all rolled up into two marks so skaters or fans never knew just what the judges thought of the steps.

Now with IJS, there are very specific requirements for earning higher levels. For most of the history of IJS, the rules have been 4 features are necessary to earn level 4, and so most elite skaters aim to include all 4 of the features Some of the specific features have changed over the years, which is why step sequences from 2005 and 2011 and 2018 will look more like other sequences from that year than from the other years. But they have always rewarded

Achieving all the features to the satisfaction of the technical panel is reflected in the called level and base value of the element score. What the judges think about the step sequences is reflected in the GOEs (and probably in some program components). So we can see from the scores when not all features were met or when judges saw errors or few or many positive GOE criteria. And we can certainly tell when a skater is getting a lot of points for their step sequence vs. when they're losing points there because of weaker content or execution, which is a lot more information than we had under 6.0 judging. We still don't always know exactly which features a skater missed if the tech panel calls level 1, 2, or 3 and it seems that the skater was trying for all 4 features, and we don't always know exactly which GOE bullet points judges gave credit for or what reductions they took for errors/weaknesses, except for obvious errors like falls. Often we can make a good guess by looking at the rules and deciding which features and bullet points we ourselves think each step sequence deserves.

I don't think the "blame" can go on any specific skaters. Some skaters simply do certain elements/aspects so well that skaters who follow them are inspired to emulate them, for artistic reasons and/or in an attempt to beat them in competition. A lot of people may be trying to do a Step Sequence like Patrick Chan, for example, but no one can quite match it (fill in the blanks with your preferred skater). Skaters do what they want according to the rules at the time, and if they do it well, others will try to follow in their footsteps. Imitation is a form of flattery, although it can get tiring for figure skating fans who miss the original skater(s). The test of a gifted skater is when they can make you forget about the requirements, though. When Patrick Chan does footwork, it never looks like he's "trying" to get a Level 4. He skates it like he planned it to be a certain way all along to match the music and it happens to also earn a Level 4. Few skaters can fulfill the requirements these days without looking like they're trying to fulfill the requirements. So, I blame the rules and not the skaters. The best skaters, however, can transcend the rules and skate into our hearts.

shine said:

Yes, both of those programs are absolute masterpieces to me. And even this SP from 2007-08 earlier in his career showed such unique and musical steps https://youtu.be/mJ4XAcIbRe4 choreographed, incidentally, by Kurt Browning

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I don’t even have to look right now to know that’s his “Treat” SP which was one of his best ever SP’s. I wish he would have brought it back towards the end of his competitive career.

Deleted my wise words. They belong to another thread

GrandmaCC said:

The Aboriginal programme was crazy weird....I still have no idea what the rationale was behind it.

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Whatever the rationale was, they and their team were clearly either unaware of the fact that there are - and have been for some time - well-established and clearly defined protocols for non-Indigenous artists to follow when interacting with and drawing on Australian Indigenous cultures, which exist for extremely good reasons, or believed that because they weren't Australian, those protocols didn't apply to them. If the latter is the case, though, their belief was, let's just say, rather drastically misguided.

If they'd followed the protocols, researched, consulted with Elders and Aboriginal dancers and constructed a respectful, accurate program that made an effort to reference a specific Australian Aboriginal culture, there would have been no problem. In the same timeframe, after all, Danielle O'Brien and Greg Merriman worked with Aboriginal artists and Elders to create an Australian Indigenous-influenced program which was both beautiful and utterly uncontroversial.