What the Wagner Controversy Shows Us | Golden Skate

What the Wagner Controversy Shows Us

skylark

skylark

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Another angle on Ashley's remarks:

The compelling aspect of this controversy is the broader reaction to it. Wagner has been virulently attacked on Twitter. This response exemplifies how frequently public expressions of female anger or frustration are vilified. Compounded by the institutionalized gender inequalities in sport — which include unequal distributions of funding, media attention, and a male monopoly on perceived biological norms that underscore athleticism — Wagner’s outspokenness is a challenge to general patriarchal norms of female behaviour and perceptions of female athletes. https://thevarsity.ca/2018/01/14/sh...er-the-sports-media-complex-and-female-anger/​

And:
the real nucleus of the Wagner controversy is not this obtuse notion of sportsmanship, but the backlash her post-performance comments generated​
 
Tonichelle

Tonichelle

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Ashley has been a love to hate her skater since 2014 when the USFSA chose her over emotional favorite Nagasu.


Ashley had every right to be upset with her PCS scores. I didn't see any other skater come close to her expression and presentation. Unfortunately she gave them the go ahead to kick her to the curb with that stupid popped jump.
 
T

temadd

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I mentioned in a different thread that professional athletes and coaches regularly complain about bad calls by officials and it doesn't cause a media storm. The culture of figure skating is very different from mainstream team sports and unfortunately frowns upon skaters publicly calling out judging. I am in total support of Ashley speaking her mind. When judging is so clearly partial, I think that it is important to weed out impropriety and examine the system.

Look at the outrage over Sale and Pelletier - it spurred a revolution in judging in figure skating. And I think for the better.

ETA I don't know that this is a gender issue as much as it is the culture of figure skating. I think the twitter storm would have been similar if it were a male skater.
 
noskates

noskates

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Totally agree with Mathman. It just goes to show that there are people out there who delight in griefing others in the anonymous twitter world. You can say just about anything to anybody without recrimination. I always picture some super unhappy person who sits at his or her computer all day and just looks for people to dump on and gets a kick out of. It's mean and uncalled for but it happens all the time. Quite frankly, we see a little bit of that on this board - and other message boards - people taking potshots at other people in a mean and crude way.

And I guess I don't agree with the institutionalized gender norms comment. I think Ashley was right to be upset, I think she was judged rather harshly (albeit correctly) and others may have been given a pass, but I think she lost standing on that argument when she was chosen over Mirai in 2014. Any sympathy some may have had for her kind of got negated. I saw too many comments like "how does it feel Ashley!"

I wish maybe she hadn't been as vehement but I don't fault her for being angry.
 
Sam-Skwantch

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I completely agree with the judging but I also don’t see a problem with Ashley’s remarks. :shrug:

I’ve never understood why anyone would post on Twitter either. I always thought it was full of this type of ignorance so I’ve just always avoided it.
 
G

GGFan

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Lawyers who traditionally have worked on civil rights cases know that choosing the right stories and plaintiffs is very important. A plaintiff represents a group of individuals and people will use little or big things to ignore the group if the representative is too flawed.

All of that to say that there is a lot more going on here than gender norms and issues and it would take a lot more than a short article to explore all of that. I've already mentioned some of the issues including the fact that it's hard for the public to empathize about a boost that no one has the right to. I've also mentioned how other skaters like Patrick and Jeremy Abbott have also been roasted for saying things that folks have found annoying or unsportsmanlike.

An analysis like this would have to take a look at the specific circumstances involved and other factors that might have explained the reaction. There is skating culture, the fact that we have a judged sport, the fact that twitter is its own animal, the fact that Ashley has courted some controversy with her inclusion on the team last time, etc. I'm all for feminist criticism but it needs to be done well. This seems like a writer taking an opportunity to use one data point to bring together information and quotes without a deeper analysis.
 
G

GGFan

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temadd said:
Look at the outrage over Sale and Pelletier - it spurred a revolution in judging in figure skating. And I think for the better.
Click to expand...

It was always bothersome that this was the case that supposedly fixed judging because the right team was declared the winner in the first place (don't hate me Canadian friends :biggrin:). There were lots of problems with 6.0, but of all teams B/S (who I rank right up there in the list of best pairs ever) should not have had to suffer the fallout of that. So outrage while helpful can often be overblown and wrongly directed. Twitter also gives cover to a lot of folks who take their critiques over the top.
 
Sam-Skwantch

Sam-Skwantch

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ggfan said:
i'm all for feminist criticism but it needs to be done well. This seems like a writer taking an opportunity to use one data point to bring together information and quotes without a deeper analysis.
Click to expand...

retweet :biggrin:
 
Eeyora

Eeyora

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Great Article!

My random thoughts. I think critics, viewers and the media love to create controversy when it comes to figure skating. Especially after the whole Nancy/ Tonya debacle. And I feel Wagner was unfairly vilified by the decision made back in 2014. Which I always felt was justified. (I would have selected Mirai over Polina) or not picked the team right away and had special monitoring sessions.

However media outlets as well as the USFSA never really highlighted Ashley vs Mirai’s work to justify the decision to the public.


Now back to 2018

Artistry is subjective however I feel Ashley did NOT get the PCS she deserved. I would have kept my mouth shut and cried in her position but she’s a fighter and an athlete. Maybe furious wasn’t the right word for her to use. But she was angry. They asked her immediately after she left the kiss and cry. Who can forget Angela crying in 2002 (she’d been through pure hell that year) or Tonia Kwiakowski ‘s soup can remark in 98. Heck even the Kween herself secluded herself in the locker room in Salt Lake to calm down.

But what gets me is logging onto to Facebook Monday with a photo of Skate America in her Moulin Rouge dress. “Wagner Furious....” No mention of her positive comments of cheering on the team. And it hurt me to see some of the cruel comments left by so called fans. And I refuse to watch the skating lesson recap.

Do I think they used their decision in 2014 against Ashley this time around- Sadly yes.

Imagine if Social Media was around other than message boards and Chatrooms during Tara and Michelle. Or the 2002 Nationals Warm-UP? ISkater.com was crazy enough.
 
medoroa

medoroa

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GGFan said:
It was always bothersome that this was the case that supposedly fixed judging because the right team was declared the winner in the first place (don't hate me Canadian friends :biggrin:). There were lots of problems with 6.0, but of all teams B/S (who I rank right up there in the list of best pairs ever) should not have had to suffer the fallout of that. So outrage while helpful can often be overblown and wrongly directed. Twitter also gives cover to a lot of folks who take their critiques over the top.
Click to expand...

The right winner was declared indeed. ;) I also have issues with how many people (including the wikipedia article) takes it as proven fact that fixing and exchange of money took place and that this has been proven -- which isn't the case at all. And I don't think it's really a coincidence that IJS would very likely have let B/S win with quite a margin, so I also disagree that a revolution happened here. But that's just me.

As for the article itself: PCS is not about emotional range, Wagner did not put on two solid performances, there are many elements of figure skating where the perceived "monopoly" of the stereotypical female physique is an advantage, the article claims women in sports are viewed as women first and athletes second but how men are viewed in figure skating is a HUGE can of worms (and I'd actually argue a "figure skater" in the North American mainstream perception is a ladies skater, while a male figure skater is a MALE figure skater), etc. All the actually interesting things in the article are quotes the writer doesn't bother delving into. Wasted potential!

P.S. Although I agree the media was selective in what they wanted to report on and blew it somewhat out of proportion to make it more of a "story". However, I don't think this will result in a loss for Wagner or USFSA at all. I'm pretty sure they're all happy they got some drama going for people to talk about leading into the Olympics.
 
draqq

draqq

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I think the Ashley controversial just shows how much politics and optics matter in our sport, for better or worse. Ashley going for commercial shoots, changing her free programs, repeating her short and long programs (on and off), withdrawing from Skate America, and having controversial quotes all had an apparent impact on her PCS scores at US Nationals. By that competition, she needed to prove that she could deliver on the technical and she fell short of it, not that I've seen that much improvement from her on the technical side with her underrotations, popping, and moderate spins. That said, I still think Karen (and Tennell) was way overscored in PCS and the international judges are going to pop that bubble very fast at the Olympics.
 
friedbanana

friedbanana

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It sucks being a public figure in the age of social media. People get really nasty
 
F

flipsydoodle

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Ashley’s behavior has to do with Ashley’s behavior, her entitlement and poor sportsmanship. That’s not a sexist critique. Men and women are faulted for those same behaviors. For comparators, one could look at almost any Olympic sport, e.g. what people say about Lochte. If you’re going to speak like that, you will be met with severe criticism, male or female. Good sports likewise attract approval, male or female. Most Olympic athletes are in the latter category. And most are in feds that fully expect their athletes to be respectful and professional.

No need to excuse or whitewash athletes who slam the judges while in a public rage.
 
Spinning

Spinning

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She loves attentions. Choosing to be controversy is her way to be relevant. I'm not sure how real is her comments in general but sometimes it feels like she feeds her ego with those interviews.

Like it or not, she kept herself as a leading lady for a long time. Her approach works!
 
P

pearly

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temadd said:
I mentioned in a different thread that professional athletes and coaches regularly complain about bad calls by officials and it doesn't cause a media storm. The culture of figure skating is very different from mainstream team sports and unfortunately frowns upon skaters publicly calling out judging. I am in total support of Ashley speaking her mind. When judging is so clearly partial, I think that it is important to weed out impropriety and examine the system.

Look at the outrage over Sale and Pelletier - it spurred a revolution in judging in figure skating. And I think for the better.

ETA I don't know that this is a gender issue as much as it is the culture of figure skating. I think the twitter storm would have been similar if it were a male skater.
Click to expand...

I agree with what you've said except the bold part. It's also a gender issue. Patrick Chan just did a little fluff piece on himself and got nearly no response. If a male skater had gone out and questioned judging, I bet half the people who didn't pause a second before attacking Wagner would stop and consider what he was saying.
 
lost3iron

lost3iron

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flipsydoodle said:
Ashley’s behavior has to do with Ashley’s behavior, her entitlement and poor sportsmanship. That’s not a sexist critique. Men and women are faulted for those same behaviors. For comparators, one could look at almost any Olympic sport, e.g. what people say about Lochte. If you’re going to speak like that, you will be met with severe criticism, male or female. Good sports likewise attract approval, male or female. Most Olympic athletes are in the latter category. And most are in feds that fully expect their athletes to be respectful and professional.

No need to excuse or whitewash athletes who slam the judges while in a public rage.
Click to expand...
Ashley feeling angry about the scores she received is nowhere near what Lochte did.
 
E

Eclair

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this forum and twitter is full of people calling Ashley 'a sore loser' 'full of entitlement' etc. just because she spoke out, when it's more outspokenness that figure skating needs.

Other athletes should feel they can speak out against unfair judging without being labeled as being unclassy or full of entitlement, too.
 
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