Comparison of jump takeoff

Tahuu · Jan 16, 2018

Here's an analysis (with video and gif) of the toe jump takeoff of the "top 6," Yuzuru, Nathan, Boyang, Patrick, Javi and Shoma.

http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/post/169727183234/the-takeoff-toe-jumps

Jump takeoff concerns pre-rotation or no pre-rotation. If you pay attention, you'll see more and more skaters who can't perform full rotations in the air are now taking off with a sideway blade pick or push and pre-rotate 90-180*. Since ISU does not allow slow-mo review of takeoff (they do allow slow-mo review of entrance for edge calls), pre-rotation cheat has not been marked as < or <<. This is a problem that should be addressed by ISU. Before we have a resolution if ever, the judges should use GOE as a tool to punish pre-rotation and reward correct takeoff.

Looking forward to the edge jump takeoff analysis by the author in his/her next installment.

largeman · Jan 16, 2018

Spirals for Miles · Jan 16, 2018

Blades of Passion, you are being summoned to this thread!! :biggrin:

schizoanalyst · Jan 16, 2018

I'm not going to wade into this in detail because I don't feel like getting into arguments about particular skaters with people at the moment. But, yes, one of the most absurd things about the current system is that your base value is determined by the number of revolutions - but where you takeoff is rarely scrutinized (partially because of an inane rule restriction about jump takeoff reviews as the OP mentions). You can't possible say someone has performed at least 2.75 or 3.75 revolutions in the air if you don't measure from the takeoff position.

ranran · Jan 16, 2018

I like the break down. Nothing I read in the post that warranted argument who is better or deserve better score what not. Just shows who has good techniques in which jumps.
Watching all this examples though for some reason reminds me how huge Kanako Murakami mule kick for triples while these guys doing quads has such a subtle tap on the ice and BAM four revolution in the air.

Judges used to use GOE for that didn't they? It used to be so hard to get even 2.50 GOE on jumps and if a skater got 2.80, it was like WOW. Nowadays judges give out +3 like freebies.

alvina9894 · Jan 16, 2018

schizoanalyst said:
I'm not going to wade into this in detail because I don't feel like getting into arguments about particular skaters with people at the moment. But, yes, one of the most absurd things about the current system is that your base value is determined by the number of revolutions - but where you takeoff is rarely scrutinized (partially because of an inane rule restriction about jump takeoff reviews as the OP mentions). You can't possible say someone has performed at least 2.75 or 3.75 revolutions in the air if you don't measure from the takeoff position.

Exactly. The on-air revolution for a 4T< with proper take-off may be the same as a 4T with significant pre-rotations.
The most absurd thing is, to determine a jump being full rotated, < or <<, a starting point and an end point must be defined. With the current attitude towards pre-rotations, I cannot see a clear definition for take off.

medoroa · Jan 17, 2018

Great post! Great to have a summery with gifs even if it's to confirm what a lot of people knew already... :slink:

I notice "actually taking off from 1/3 or even 1/2 of the blade of the foot you should only be using to catapult yourself" is really common in ladies triples too. I always wondered why IJS rules didn't address this because... Sarah Hughes pre-rotated a lot in 2002 (her toe jumps looked like Uno's) and people talked a lot about how if the judges had access to slow-mo replay of her jumps, they should have marked her down, so I'd have assumed pre-rotation was at the forefront of the ISU's mind when they were coming up with IJS, just like flutzes were. (But maybe this wasn't discussed much in the US, I dunno.) Rules are weird.

largeman · Jan 17, 2018

alvina9894 said:
Exactly. The on-air revolution for a 4T< with proper take-off may be the same as a 4T with significant pre-rotations.
The most absurd thing is, to determine a jump being full rotated, < or <<, a starting point and an end point must be defined. With the current attitude towards pre-rotations, I cannot see a clear definition for take off.

Wow, that's such a succinct summary that encapsulates what a lot of us have been trying to articulate, year after year with pages after pages and threads after threads. :agree:

blackey · Jan 17, 2018

i feel like if you're being around long enough you'd stop caring about stuff like these.. maybe it's just me.

ejnsofi · Jan 17, 2018

Tahuu said:
Here's an analysis (with video and gif) of the toe jump takeoff of the "top 6," Yuzuru, Nathan, Boyang, Patrick, Javi and Shoma.

http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/post/169727183234/the-takeoff-toe-jumps

Jump takeoff concerns pre-rotation or no pre-rotation. If you pay attention, you'll see more and more skaters who can't perform full rotations in the air are now taking off with a sideway blade pick or push and pre-rotate 90-180*. Since ISU does not allow slow-mo review of takeoff (they do allow slow-mo review of entrance for edge calls), pre-rotation cheat has not been marked as < or <<. This is a problem that should be addressed by ISU. Before we have a resolution if ever, the judges should use GOE as a tool to punish pre-rotation and reward correct takeoff.

Looking forward to the edge jump takeoff analysis by the author in his/her next installment.

I love this tumblr. The author is pretty unbiased and he/she has a lot of great posts about technical stuff and programs

singerskates · Jan 17, 2018

To the defense of all singles and pairs figure skaters everywhere, without some prerotation jumps would not get the inertia to rotate in the air, and then all that would happen is the skater going straight up and then down without any rotation in the air.
Prerotation is expected but only up to a quarter turn on the ice to initiate the turn to get the turn turning in the air. Try doing a single Toe Loop off ice without twisting the foot you're tapping in and see where it takes you. Now allow for a quarter twist with the foot your tapping in with. Notice how, you can get one rotation when you twist on the tap in. There is good reason for prerotating jumps.

Blades of Passion · Jan 17, 2018

singerskates said:
To the defense of all singles and pairs figure skaters everywhere, without some prerotation jumps would not get the inertia to rotate in the air, and then all that would happen is the skater going straight up and then down without any rotation in the air.
Prerotation is expected but only up to a quarter turn on the ice to initiate the turn to get the turn turning in the air.

Not sure where you're getting this idea from. Lutz and Flip can be done with no prerotation at all, as you can actually see in this video on Hanyu's Lutz and Flip, and the quarter turn prerotation allowance isn't something that exists. Jumps like toeloop, salchow, loop all normally have a half turn pre-rotation (although you can do less, quarter turn would be the minimum basically to generate inertia as you say). A half turn is really the allowance that needs to be given to every jump, although ideally I'd like to see the Lutz, Flip, and Axel done with less than that.

largeman · Jan 18, 2018

Blades of Passion said:
Not sure where you're getting this idea from. Lutz and Flip can be done with no prerotation at all, as you can actually see in this video on Hanyu's Lutz and Flip, and the quarter turn prerotation allowance isn't something that exists. Jumps like toeloop, salchow, loop all normally have a half turn pre-rotation (although you can do less, quarter turn would be the minimum basically to generate inertia as you say). A half turn is really the allowance that needs to be given to every jump, although ideally I'd like to see the Lutz, Flip, and Axel done with less than that.

You want it? You got it
Flip, toeloop and loop three in a row: https://youtu.be/x9vdzqZoS_k?t=4m45s

Magnificent

Her jump technique is so good it's scary...

cl2 · Jan 18, 2018

largeman said:
You want it? You got it
Flip, toeloop and loop three in a row: https://youtu.be/x9vdzqZoS_k?t=4m45s

Magnificent

Her jump technique is so good it's scary...

Her jump technique also includes smiling through the entire 3F-3T combination! :love:

MarinHondas · Jan 18, 2018

cl2 said:
Her jump technique also includes smiling through the entire 3F-3T combination!

While watching it live i noticed she was smiling DURING the combo, and from there I knew she was going to land it. You have to be uber confident in your jumps to smile while executing them. Even the best performers in the world usually don't smile or emote while jumping.

Miss Ice · Jan 18, 2018

largeman said:
You want it? You got it
Flip, toeloop and loop three in a row: https://youtu.be/x9vdzqZoS_k?t=4m45s

Magnificent

Her jump technique is so good it's scary...

Well, according to the ISU jump guidelines, the flip jump should have a slight inside edge (even according to Italian jump simulations! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fgCCqeMdVM) Not a HUGE deep inside edge... so I'm not sure the technique is textbook. It's still pretty good though.

Also, that 3T was veery borderline on UR.. :slink:

Globetrotter · Jan 19, 2018

Miss Ice said:
Well, according to the ISU jump guidelines, the flip jump should have a slight inside edge (even according to Italian jump simulations! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fgCCqeMdVM) Not a HUGE deep inside edge... so I'm not sure the technique is textbook. It's still pretty good though.

Also, that 3T was veery borderline on UR..

I really wonder how she gets the 3F all round so nicely with that deeper than normal inside edge. On slo-mo, I will actually think it is pretty badass. I never actually realize how great her toepick technique was. I knew she had pretty solid jump techniques and basics, never mind the headcase, but I never realize she actually picks in and jump with so little pre- rotation. Even on the 3T. More often than not, you have a quarter to half pre rotation especially the 3T on the backend. In this case, she landed about a quarter short on the 3T but considering that she has so pre rotation, it means she actually has more air time, about 2.75 revolutions. Compare that to say Zhenya who muscles the 3T with a slight cheated half pre rotation, CaroK’s techniques actually got more basic rotations in the air. Unfortunately, this is not quite rewarded. Karen Chen is the other whom I had noticed had great clean 3Lz technique with hardly any pre rotation and the same on the 3T. She gets slammed by UR call on the 3T as unlike CaroK, she tends to be shorter by a little more than 90 deg but I personally am bothered by it labeled as < as her lack of pre rotation means she has almost 2.7 rotations, still more than what bigger pre rotators like Satoko and Zhenya does but not called.

largeman · Jan 19, 2018

Globetrotter said:
I never actually realize how great her toepick technique was. I knew she had pretty solid jump techniques and basics, never mind the headcase, but I never realize she actually picks in and jump with so little pre- rotation.

Here's her lutz, to complete the toe jump collection

https://imgflip.com/gif/217paf

That was almost three full 360-degree revolutions in the air!

singerskates · Jan 19, 2018

largeman said:
Here's her lutz, to complete the toe jump collection

https://imgflip.com/gif/217paf

That was almost three full 360-degree revolutions in the air!

Notice that Carolina Kostner is picking in on a slight angle with her toe pick, so that does have some pre rotation but it is allowed up to a quarter turn.

rhubarb · Jan 20, 2018

If I were being honest, I would rather the skater do the jump with the correct take-off position than for the jump to be under-rotated.

I appreciate those skaters (especially ladies) who take the time to perfect the lutz deep outside-edge. It makes me happy to see that! :party2:

:agree:

Comparison of jump takeoff

Tahuu

largeman

choice beef

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion

schizoanalyst

ranran

Zamboni time

alvina9894

medoroa

largeman

choice beef

blackey

ejnsofi

singerskates

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

largeman

choice beef

cl2

MarinHondas

Miss Ice

Let the sky fall~

Globetrotter

largeman

choice beef

singerskates

rhubarb

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