Understanding Dance Protocols | Golden Skate

Understanding Dance Protocols

patines

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
At Europeans, Papadakis and Cizeron had three elements with +3.30 GOEs. Judges cannot give higher than 3.0 in GOE. Can anyone help me understand how they were given GOEs higher than 3.0.

Short Dance
NtMiSt3 GOE 3.3
PSt4 GOE 3.3
Free Dance
MiSt3 GOE 3.3
 

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion
Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
I think it's because of the GOE factor. Kinda like how when you fall on a quad, you get -4 in GOE because the judges give out all -3 GOE, but when you fall on a triple, the same -3 given by the judge result in -2.10 GOE.
But I'm not too knowledgeable at dance.
 

ancientpeas

The Notorious SEW
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
There are several very knowledgeable people here who really know their dance stuff. I always learn a lot from Mrs. P and Anyasnake to name a couple. GKelly's link is very helpful if you enjoy charts. :thumbsup:

I too am confused when the GOE is over 3. I wonder when it goes to 5 if it will then be more than 5.
 

Anyasnake

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 28, 2016
Like gkelly posted, take a look at the document, it gives an indication of what you would receive with a row of 0, 1, 2, or 3 for example. A row of 3 (after elimination of the lowest and highest GOE) is equivalent to a 3.3 GOE for step sequences. A row of 2, you get 2.2 GOE.

You get a maximum of +1.80 GOE for lifts, twizzles, the dance spin and pattern ; a maximum of +2.1 GOE for choreographic elements.
 

icetigger

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
At Europeans, Papadakis and Cizeron had three elements with +3.30 GOEs. Judges cannot give higher than 3.0 in GOE. Can anyone help me understand how they were given GOEs higher than 3.0.

Short Dance
NtMiSt3 GOE 3.3
PSt4 GOE 3.3
Free Dance
MiSt3 GOE 3.3

It's actually the same in ice dance as in the other disciples. There's a -3 to +3 scale from which a number of points are then worked out and either added or taken away from the score for the element in terms of base value. What those points are though, is decided seperately and also isn't consistent relative to base value. For example a plus 3 triple axel gets the same number of points added on as a quad lutz. The number of points also can exceed +3 or -3 across all disciplines but we rarely see it in the other disciplines because the elements that would require those sort of points aren't performed. For example, a plus 3 quad axel this season would have 3.6 points added on to it.
 

ReasonOFF

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 5, 2017
that's all too weird. they have made easier and easier dances. i remember time when it was one long step sequence. they cuted off it to two parts because most of skaters were to weak to do it correctly
 

pearly

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
There are several very knowledgeable people here who really know their dance stuff. I always learn a lot from Mrs. P and Anyasnake to name a couple. GKelly's link is very helpful if you enjoy charts. :thumbsup:

I too am confused when the GOE is over 3. I wonder when it goes to 5 if it will then be more than 5.

I would think so. Just to give more value to a perfectly executed difficult element as opposed to a perfectly executed simpler element. So you have a difference in both base value and GOE. Here's the scale of values for pairs and singles: http://www.isu.org/docman-documents...munications/14352-isu-communication-2089/file
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
There are several very knowledgeable people here who really know their dance stuff. I always learn a lot from Mrs. P and Anyasnake to name a couple. GKelly's link is very helpful if you enjoy charts. :thumbsup:

I too am confused when the GOE is over 3. I wonder when it goes to 5 if it will then be more than 5.

I'm very grateful for those people. I think one of the reasons I've become such a fan of ice dance is that I can get lost in the performances more. I'm not focusing on the technical so much.
Barring some sort of obvious mishap, I can't tell the difference between a L4 step sequence and a L3, especially when viewing live.

It's relatively easy in the other disciplines to identify what type of jump, number of rotations, spot underrotations and poor edge takeoffs - and I'm always checking a mental checklist throughout the program. I'm a little worse looking at spin levels, and next to useless on step sequences.

With dance, I just sit back, enjoy, and throw out uninformed opinions. It's great!
 

ancientpeas

The Notorious SEW
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
I'm very grateful for those people. I think one of the reasons I've become such a fan of ice dance is that I can get lost in the performances more. I'm not focusing on the technical so much.
Barring some sort of obvious mishap, I can't tell the difference between a L4 step sequence and a L3, especially when viewing live.

It's relatively easy in the other disciplines to identify what type of jump, number of rotations, spot underrotations and poor edge takeoffs - and I'm always checking a mental checklist throughout the program. I'm a little worse looking at spin levels, and next to useless on step sequences.

With dance, I just sit back, enjoy, and throw out uninformed opinions. It's great!

It's so helpful. I really think casual viewers of dance could real benefit from having someone with knowledge to ask questions.
I can't tell the difference to be honest. I assume the judges are correct when they call it a level 3 or 4. I almost never say anything about levels. I just state if I enjoyed it or not. And I complain about music and costumes because, hey, any shmo can have an opinion about those.
 

Anyasnake

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 28, 2016
Basically there are a certain numbers of clean turns required (don't know how much but they all have to be clean) + one foot sequence from the man + one from the woman = level 4
Clean turns means absolutely clean : no snow (!!), no "cheating" by going flat instead of grabbing the edge, a right curve...
It's almost impossible to say if it's level 4 if you are watching a performance except if you exactly know the rules and if you focus on the feet only... Which is why there is a technical panel, because we all have more to do than check out the feet and not the whole performance.
By the way so are the judges. They can spot tiny things, but they do give an overall mark to the sequence. Clean, tempo, etc. That's why you can have a level 3 and a +3.30 GOE.
On the other hand it's easier to spot right/wrong steps on the Rumba pattern.

Frankly I'm not focusing on the feet during a performance, I have better things to do. I check after though :laugh:
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
It's so helpful. I really think casual viewers of dance could real benefit from having someone with knowledge to ask questions.
I can't tell the difference to be honest. I assume the judges are correct when they call it a level 3 or 4. I almost never say anything about levels. I just state if I enjoyed it or not. And I complain about music and costumes because, hey, any shmo can have an opinion about those.

Ditto. I can see speed and projection and confidence and connection/chemistry between the dancers... and I have a lot to say about that. But - "That circular step sequence was clearly a L3" - no, you won't hear that from me.

At least I'm savvy enough to know that "Hey, I liked that a lot!" does not mean the element is a Level 4. I think that makes me smarter than the average ice dance viewer.
 

ancientpeas

The Notorious SEW
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
Ditto. I can see speed and projection and confidence and connection/chemistry between the dancers... and I have a lot to say about that. But - "That circular step sequence was clearly a L3" - no, you won't hear that from me.

At least I'm savvy enough to know that "Hey, I liked that a lot!" does not mean the element is a Level 4. I think that makes me smarter than the average ice dance viewer.

Knowing the difference between what you personally prefer and what is actually better skating is a gift. I am often much more entertained by lower ranked skaters in dance but I do know that the higher ranked ones are often higher ranked for a reason.
 

rhubarb

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
It's so helpful. I really think casual viewers of dance could real benefit from having someone with knowledge to ask questions.
I can't tell the difference to be honest. I assume the judges are correct when they call it a level 3 or 4. I almost never say anything about levels. I just state if I enjoyed it or not. And I complain about music and costumes because, hey, any shmo can have an opinion about those.

Yes it's definitely easier to analyze singles imo...
 
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