New documentary about Evgenia and Alina
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Western Gal talking here: Honestly, every half-decent athlete (possibly only those of us in an individual sport, admittedly) will at some point have at least SOME level of this methodology used by our coaches. The “quiet serious talking voice” always frightened me more than a fit of yelling!! Lol
Of course a lot will depend on the athlete, some need “coddling” more than others, some need to be coached out of working themselves to the bone (Zhenya), but most will benefit from the tough love approach. A smart coach (and a smart set of parents and not to mention smart athlete) will know if their training life is not right for them and will make the call to switch coaches.
It is when a coach ignores you, does not yell, does not care enough to even raise an eyebrow...that is when you worry.
And see, both ladies are medal winners at Olympic Games. Quite obviously the constructive criticism has worked
Of course a lot will depend on the athlete, some need “coddling” more than others, some need to be coached out of working themselves to the bone (Zhenya), but most will benefit from the tough love approach. A smart coach (and a smart set of parents and not to mention smart athlete) will know if their training life is not right for them and will make the call to switch coaches.
It is when a coach ignores you, does not yell, does not care enough to even raise an eyebrow...that is when you worry.
And see, both ladies are medal winners at Olympic Games. Quite obviously the constructive criticism has worked
Belittling is - typically- not abuse when used in a coaching environment, normally it is used in a teasing way to motivate, often even with parents present when the athlete is very young. I’m talking here comments such as “are you going to let a girl beat you?” “That’s all of that food you ate on vacation!!” “Mess this up, *Brad* and everyone is doing another set”....”let’s all watch *sally* do push-ups” (knowing full well that 7 year old Sally can not do more than 4).
These things sound awful read back, but having lived them, I can attest that they are indeed said lightheartedly and were taken so.
The individual relationship with the coach will be one of caring, kindness - but no one other than athlete themselves really gets to experience this as it’s typically one-on-one.
Gymnastics though, if you are speaking of the US system, involved a lot of manipulation and withdrawal of attention based on an injury etc (leaving the starvation and disgusting abuses completely alone, they are simply beyond the pale).
Majority of sports do not have the selection system Gym does (hopefully, DID!) to allow this mental pressure and mind games to thrive.
We can see how this type of training benefited Polina Shelepen and most recently Julia Lipnitskaya. It does not work for all athletes. Some only strive in more supportive enviroments with their parents at their side. For others the method of Eteri works.
Marin looks happy on the ice (and off ice), Alina rarely does (especially in this documentary). Maybe Alina's personal circumstances are also a key factor, I am not blaming solely the training team.
Someone said above that this is what it takes if you want to be the very best. It mai well be true, I won't argue. But just remember we are talking about children here, not adult athletes who can truly discern what they want in life and the efforts they are willing to do for their professional carrerr (and who have the maturity to quit / try something else if it is for their own benefit). If the coach of your child would drag your child by their feet on the ice becuse the child keeps falling in practice (like Evgenia told Eteri did to her) would you let your child to continue to train with the said coach? I don't think there is a correct answer to this question: to Evgenia this event is a funny memory. To a different child it may be a traumatic childhood memory.
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Just now got a chance to watch this and based on some of the comments here I was also expecting worse from Eteri. However, that doesn't mean I agree with all of her methods. It's ok to be tough and critical (i.e., pointing out Alina's mistakes in the run-through, some lecturing). What's less ok IMO is the more blatant/personal insults (i.e., saying "That was bad" to Alina after her program), or criticizing looks or weight.
There is a fine line sometimes with many of these things - part of being an effective coach is knowing your athletes well and being able to give the right instruction or comment at the right time. As mentioned in this thread, some athletes respond more positively to heavier criticism.
In general though, higher athlete self-confidence is associated with coaches who maintain control of their emotions. If you watch Brian Orser while one of his students is competing, for example, he applauds even after mistakes, he gives them a pat on the shoulder and encouraging words after the performance whether it was clean or not. He never acts visibly disappointed or angry or completely loses it.
Maintaining composure and a supportive attitude so the skater feels confident they are doing well or still can do well (in the case of a poor performance) is generally more effective than the skater seeing their coach react negatively to the performance/results and not being supportive. Others may disagree with me, but I do not think it is healthy or creates the right environment for long-term success to fear your coach.
There is a fine line sometimes with many of these things - part of being an effective coach is knowing your athletes well and being able to give the right instruction or comment at the right time. As mentioned in this thread, some athletes respond more positively to heavier criticism.
In general though, higher athlete self-confidence is associated with coaches who maintain control of their emotions. If you watch Brian Orser while one of his students is competing, for example, he applauds even after mistakes, he gives them a pat on the shoulder and encouraging words after the performance whether it was clean or not. He never acts visibly disappointed or angry or completely loses it.
Maintaining composure and a supportive attitude so the skater feels confident they are doing well or still can do well (in the case of a poor performance) is generally more effective than the skater seeing their coach react negatively to the performance/results and not being supportive. Others may disagree with me, but I do not think it is healthy or creates the right environment for long-term success to fear your coach.
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I hope not. How are you ever going to win if your emotions and self-confidence are under someone else's control?
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Certainly those things should not be entirely dependent on/controlled by someone else. The training environment/culture influences them and that influence can have a positive effect or a negative one.
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The truth is that a champion spirit or mental toughness is not something you can teach from outside. This is the work of the athlete himself.
And I don't think skaters competing on this level are this mentally fragile or can't tell themselves whether their performance was good or bad without the input of the coach.
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You used Orser as an example. How consistent is Tursynbaeva? Daleman?
The truth is, sometimes it's important to actually make the skaters confront the issues and not allow them to run from them, or to consider them to not be all that important. Different people react differently - And Eteri only chooses students that react well to her methods.
To me, Eteri's group seems very close-knit and genuine.
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I agree with this to a point. I would not say the "outside" doesn't matter at all or that mental toughness cannot be improved.
This is part of the reason I don't believe it's effective for the coach to berate the skater. They know that X jump was bad. Is telling them it was bad at that point helpful or unhelpful? I'd go with unhelpful.
Doesn't mean they should pull the wool over the skater's eyes and tell them they're doing great when they're not and they need to work harder. They know. Of course that wouldn't be effective at all.
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How consistent is Yuzuru Hanyu? Yu-Na Kim?
I definitely don't disagree. I said in my post part of being a great coach is saying the right things at the right time - I think that Eteri potentially has mastered this and knows exactly what to say to Alina or Evgenia to motivate each of them.
What concerns me is the long-term impact of being in an overall negative environment day after day and not being supported by the coach or being insulted or personally criticized by the coach. Nothing in this documentary suggests that's what life with Eteri is like. I think she's quite possibly a kind person and does support these girls even if she's tough.
In response to the discussion in this thread I'm offering my perspective about what the ideal training culture would be. Some of Eteri's comments and methods are less than ideal for me, but I recognize that doesn't mean it's automatically wrong or abusive.
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I'm not talking about male skaters. But indeed, how consistent was Yu-Na Kim? Do you actually think she was a consistent skater? She skated both programs clean in a competition once in a blue moon.
The other side of the coin is the sort of comments Polina Tsurskaya gave about Eteri's support while she was struggling with her injury. Different people look for different things.
Personally, I'd be annoyed if a person wasn't telling me everything they thought about my performance and felt like they had to hold back. I don't think a relationship like -that- could work.
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wow thanks for sharing this video! I'm fascinated with Eteri lol. I guess because she's got that mysterious "poker face" and produces such great results. I like her blunt and matter-of-fact criticism. I like a little more warmth, but I prefer matter-of-fact over yelling or screaming when it comes to coaching. I probably would be a bit terrified of her, but only because I know she expects absolute excellence and commitment and nothing less. If I wanted to be World Champion and have that level of excellence, I would want her to tell me the unsugarcoated truth.
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From what I remember she was the most consistently clean skater at the time.
I'm not sure what Polina said, but if what Eteri did worked for her then that's great and I'm glad to hear that.
Ideally your coach would understand that about you and would tell you what you needed to hear to motivate you and help you get the most out of their guidance. Is it considered holding back though just because the coach is calm and tells the skater everything they thought in a composed and still supportive way?
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Is there any problem with Marin? Why did you mention her?
Or maybe you have something against coach Mie Hamada and her methods?
I think the original poster was going off of what was circling the forums that Marin's coach was critical of her to the press saying that she wasn't training consistently and not as dedicated and that's the reason for her doing poorly this season.
Probably just a curious question about how someone like Marin, who is allegedly not as dedicated, might fall apart and just decide to quit altogether since she herself isn't driven and might require a coach to be that driving force. Again, I say this not knowing Marin at all but just from the articles that were circulating at some point. Don't think the poster was trying to criticize Mie Hamada at all.
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Loved the documentary. Loved the realness of it. No sugarcoating, these girls are not princesses. They are warriors.
Eteri would be my kind of coach, I prefer the cold type than the yelling, OTT type. Alina and Zhenya work differently and coaches have to adapt.
This is not a fancy center with fancy equipment. You get the rink, gym room (which looks a bit old) that's it, and you do your job otherwise you do it again.
This is one tough world, we already knew that but it's nice to have it accurately portrayed in a documentary. (Can someone sends it to NBC ?)
Exactly....She may not be for everyone but she would have been perfect for me. She seems to be a, Get your work done with as little drama as possible, kind of coach and I like that. If I need sympathy, I'll get it from my mom. She gets her skaters to dig deep and that's I love about them, especially Evgenia. She's skates like a mature woman and she's not yet 20 years old. I can see her catching Katerina Witt and winning 2 OGM's. I wish her the best in the individual event and may the best skater win...
I read in some interviews that Eteri is also involved in the broader education of the kids. she tries to give them advice about life in general, talking about movies, books, clothes, life after sport. She said something that the skaters spend their youth with her so it's important to give them something in this respect as well. I like it.
