Team Event: Short Dance Play-By-Play | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Team Event: Short Dance Play-By-Play

draqq

FigureSkatingPhenom
Record Breaker
Joined
May 10, 2010
Virtue and Moirs SP music should not qualify as a Latin origin. Just because it is modified to have the beats to Rhumba, it shouldnt be considered as Latin American Rhythms.

Latin origin is different from Latin rhythms. Dancers can perform any of the ballroom dances to non-Latin music so long as it matches the specified beat of the Latin selection. And I believe ice dancers choosing different kinds of music to traditional ballroom is a very good thing, lending more room for choreography and interpretation.

I mean, one of my favorite short dances is Gilles and Poirier's waltz to the Beatles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVR6lnGLM58
 

NoNameFace

GS given name - Beatrice
Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Latin origin is different from Latin rhythms. Dancers can perform any of the ballroom dances to non-Latin music so long as it matches the specified beat of the Latin selection. And I believe ice dancers choosing different kinds of music to traditional ballroom is a very good thing, lending more room for choreography and interpretation.

I mean, one of my favorite short dances is Gilles and Poirier's waltz to the Beatles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVR6lnGLM58

Still one of my fave SDs too to re-watch :). I think that Gilles/Poirier's short dances are great examples of how to play with dance style/convention, still being inside of rhythmical requirements of the segment - they are pushing their boundaries in terms of interpretation, styling and cohesion of the music and movement by their short dances for past 3 seasons; yes, they are not the best scored team, nor the most appreciated for their material by judges, but they really can incorporate a lot of personality, character and originality inside if their SD programs, making them stand out. They may not stand closest to dance style origins, but they manage to often stay the most original and unique out there.
 

icekiwi

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Latin origin is different from Latin rhythms. Dancers can perform any of the ballroom dances to non-Latin music so long as it matches the specified beat of the Latin selection. And I believe ice dancers choosing different kinds of music to traditional ballroom is a very good thing, lending more room for choreography and interpretation.

I mean, one of my favorite short dances is Gilles and Poirier's waltz to the Beatles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVR6lnGLM58

Thank you, DRAQQ. I agree with you. I don't know where Fredtx121 posted that as I can't find it in this thread. My question for Fredtx121 is 'Does Ed Sheeran 's musical pieces as used in this Olympics have more 'Latin Origin '?

My husband and I are Latin dancers, V/M's SD music selection if anything has a more precise Latin beat than P/C's Ed Sheeran's selection. Samba beat is counted as 'Ah 1, Ah 2, Ah 3, Ah 4', Rhumba at 2,3, 4 (with a silent 1 represented by pause in movement), Cha Cha at 2,3, 4 & 1. In fact, their Rolling Stone music is precise original Samba Rock beat.
P/C fans will argue until the sun comes down but Ed Sheeran's pieces is no way Latin origin nor more precise in its beats.
 

Anyasnake

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 28, 2016
icekiwi, still on the same tape ? Were P/C here ? We get that you are not fond of them, but this is the 5th time you post that kind of comment. And in during the SD in a week, you'll post how P/C should be 10th because "this is not Latin". Just anticipating though. We get it, but there is nothing about skating in what you are saying. You know they get judged for that, right ?
 

alain06fr

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 4, 2015
Thank you, DRAQQ. I agree with you. I don't know where Fredtx121 posted that as I can't find it in this thread. My question for Fredtx121 is 'Does Ed Sheeran 's musical pieces as used in this Olympics have more 'Latin Origin '?

My husband and I are Latin dancers, V/M's SD music selection if anything has a more precise Latin beat than P/C's Ed Sheeran's selection. Samba beat is counted as 'Ah 1, Ah 2, Ah 3, Ah 4', Rhumba at 2,3, 4 (with a silent 1 represented by pause in movement), Cha Cha at 2,3, 4 & 1. In fact, their Rolling Stone music is precise original Samba Rock beat.
P/C fans will argue until the sun comes down but Ed Sheeran's pieces is no way Latin origin nor more precise in its beats.

Your limitless adoration of V/M should not blind you up to the point of telling tales about Ed Sheeran and Shape of you.
The ISU requires ice dance couples to dance on rhumba / samba rhythms. They don't care whether the music itself sounds latin or anything else, which basically gives some freedom to all competitors to choose the music style they like the most, while sticking to the imposed rhythm.

You are dancer? Great! On my side, I studied music for many years and I can tell you Shape of you is based on a pure samba rhythm.
 

icekiwi

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Your limitless adoration of V/M should not blind you up to the point of telling tales about Ed Sheeran and Shape of you.
The ISU requires ice dance couples to dance on rhumba / samba rhythms. They don't care whether the music itself sounds latin or anything else, which basically gives some freedom to all competitors to choose the music style they like the most, while sticking to the imposed rhythm.

You are dancer? Great! On my side, I studied music for many years and I can tell you Shape of you is based on a pure samba rhythm.

You are exposing your actual lack of knowledge of music by calling 'Ed Sheeran's 'Shape of You ' as 'pure' samba rhythm. Which university did you graduate from and what is your major? Yes it has Samba ryhthm to give the 'Ah' count but pure?? Define 'pure'? My son who is a music graduate, Grade 8 pianist, now working on his letters, who also happens to be a huge Ed Sheeran fan in fact attending Ed Sheeran's New Zealand concert for the 2nd time in March (even invite me to join him, tickets still available ), just laughed when I told him your statement. 'Shape of you' is just music with some drum beats added to create the Latin rhythm.
 

alain06fr

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 4, 2015
You are exposing your actual lack of knowledge of music by calling 'Ed Sheeran's 'Shape of You ' as 'pure' samba rhythm. Which university did you graduate from and what is your major? Yes it has Samba ryhthm to give the 'Ah' count but pure?? Define 'pure'? My son who is a music graduate, Grade 8 pianist, now working on his letters, who also happens to be a huge Ed Sheeran fan in fact attending Ed Sheeran's New Zealand concert for the 2nd time in March (even invite me to join him, tickets still available ), just laughed when I told him your statement. 'Shape of you' is just music with some drum beats added to create the Latin rhythm.

There's no need to be Grade 8 pianist to know Shape of you is based on a samba rhythm which fully meets the ISU short dance requirements.
Prior giving lessons on a figure skating forum and talking about "latin origine", you should rather read the ISU communications on the short dance.
 

icekiwi

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
icekiwi, still on the same tape ? Were P/C here ? We get that you are not fond of them, but this is the 5th time you post that kind of comment. And in during the SD in a week, you'll post how P/C should be 10th because "this is not Latin". Just anticipating though. We get it, but there is nothing about skating in what you are saying. You know they get judged for that, right ?

Hi Anyasnake, I think you are following me around (I am laughing right now) because I hardly post as you can see from my profile. Each time I said something, you are there. There are plenty of discussions going on Ice Dance which I haven't posted whatsoever. Anyway, I don't know where you get my so called comments from, so please 'attach' my actual comments to make replies because I never said P/C should be 10th in the SD, that would be crazy ha ha! (if I were to combine skating with dance and purely as a figure skating fan for over 20 years, I will put them 4th). And the 'not Latin', I don't know where you get it from, I have said P/C' SD lack actual Samba/Rhumba content. Lacking dance 'content' doesn't mean the dance is not Latin.

You haven't asked what I think of P/C 's FD, I was mesmerized from the very 1st time of seeing it on YouTube. It is that good, beautiful movements to different phrases of Moonlight Sonata. One can call that 'contemporary' dance to classical music. When comes to this particular genre, they are so good at it, it is unmatched at the moment . So, your presumption that I am against P/C in some way is terribly misconceived. I will put Gabby /Guillume first on choreography, interpretation and presentation but that PC is so subjective.
 

icekiwi

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
There's no need to be Grade 8 pianist to know Shape of you is based on a samba rhythm which fully meets the ISU short dance requirements.
Prior giving lessons on a figure skating forum and talking about "latin origine", you should rather read the ISU communications on the short dance.

You are the one who said 'I have studied music for many years and I can tell 'Shape of you' is pure Samba rhythm' to give credit to yourself and to appear that you have substantive knowledge which you actually don't. In fact, the 'Latin Origin' argument was made by an anti V/M fan I believe if you have bothered to read the rest of the thread instead of jumping the gun and making false credentials about yourself. I am merely challenging an unsubstantiated statement made by someone else.
 

icetigger

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
You are exposing your actual lack of knowledge of music by calling 'Ed Sheeran's 'Shape of You ' as 'pure' samba rhythm. Which university did you graduate from and what is your major? Yes it has Samba ryhthm to give the 'Ah' count but pure?? Define 'pure'? My son who is a music graduate, Grade 8 pianist, now working on his letters, who also happens to be a huge Ed Sheeran fan in fact attending Ed Sheeran's New Zealand concert for the 2nd time in March (even invite me to join him, tickets still available ), just laughed when I told him your statement. 'Shape of you' is just music with some drum beats added to create the Latin rhythm.

Actually no. Shape of You is written on a latin/ Caribbean rhythm; and is emphatically sung and the melodically constructed to emphasise that rhythm. I don't think it is a samba rhythm as you understand it; and that aspect of the rhythmic percussion which you understand to be samba might be pasted on, but the fundamental rhythm on which the song is based has its roots in the candomble, which is what tends to define a latin rhythm..

https://soundsandcolours.com/articl...brazilian-indigenous-music-of-candomble-7067/

You might find this useful. Especially the Gilberto Gil link, for it is based not the same basic rhythm that Shape of you was written on. As the article points out, it is the rhythm that samba and bossa nova were developed from.

You might also want to check out the wikipedia entry for Shape of You, and see how popular (esp compared to other Ed Sheehan songs) was on hispanic and latin radio in south and central America and the U.S. It was for example the second most highly played song on Monitor Latino in Argentina for 2017, and at number 1 on the billboard airplay chart for Brazil for 2017. It also charted in the U.S. Latin charts.

By contrast Sympathy for the devil was written as a song, and then the rhythm pasted by the drummer Charlie Watts. I don't have a problem with Sympathy for the Devil on these grounds. But in terms of how you define what is problematic to you and your understanding of latin rhythms, it is more problematic.
 

alain06fr

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 4, 2015
You are the one who said 'I have studied music for many years and I can tell 'Shape of you' is pure Samba rhythm' to give credit to yourself and to appear that you have substantive knowledge which you actually don't. In fact, the 'Latin Origin' argument was made by an anti V/M fan I believe if you have bothered to read the rest of the thread instead of jumping the gun and making false credentials about yourself. I am merely challenging an unsubstantiated statement made by someone else.

Yes I have studied music for 11 years but, unlike you, I'm not the kind of person who spreads all the details of his life and those of his relatives, especially on a Figure Skating forum. If you like insulting people you don't know by pretending they are liars, it's up to you!
Better read the ISU short dance communications instead of complaining and pretending to give lessons about P/C SD music.
 

alain06fr

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 4, 2015
'Shape of you' is just music with some drum beats added to create the Latin rhythm.

Creating a latin rhythm by adding drum beats? Really?
Sounds like you're not even aware Ed Sheeran released different versions and remixes of "Shape of you", among them a "samba remixed version" also known as "Latin remixed version" which is exactly the one used by PC for their short dance...
 

hvr1000

Spectator
Joined
Oct 7, 2016
Alain this icekiwi has absolutely no knowledge about anything to do with ice dance and sounds like they have no knowledge of ballroom either if they are unable to recognise an acceptable latino beat. Did they look at the ballroom videos by ballroom dancers on youtube played by Ed Sheeran? Doesn't look like it.
But they find Santana to be an acceptable rock and roll come chacha and a re-hashed blues purporting to be Rhumba for Hotel California? One must just laugh.
Yes I have studied music for 11 years but, unlike you, I'm not the kind of person who spreads all the details of his life and those of his relatives, especially on a Figure Skating forum. If you like insulting people you don't know by pretending they are liars, it's up to you!
Better read the ISU short dance communications instead of complaining and pretending to give lessons about P/C SD music.
 

ChanClan

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 4, 2017
oh my god. for god sakes people, they both are/aren't latin. there get over it. It doesn't even matter anymore because they're both skating to it whether y'all think one is latin and the other not.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Ice dance has rules that do not particularly have anything to do with ballroom rules and conventions.

For this year's SD, the reference is ISU Communication 2076

Junior and Senior: Any number of the following Latin American Rhythms: Cha Cha, Rhumba, Samba, Mambo, Meringue, Salsa, Bachata and any closely related Latin American Rhythms

Senior: The Pattern Dance Element shall be skated to any of the Latin American Rhythms and must be in the style of the chosen rhythm, with the range of temp: 172 – 180 beats per minute.

The Tempo of the music throughout the Pattern Dance Element must be constant. Pattern Dance Type Step Sequence (PSt - as described in the Rule 703, para 4b,iii) must be skated to a different rhythm from the one chosen for the Non Touching Step Sequence. The Tempo of the music throughout the Pattern Dance Type Step Sequence must be constant

The music requirements for the rhumba section of the SD are in the pattern dance reference document:
https://www.ice-dance.com/site/reference/pattern-dance-descriptions-patterns/rhumba/

Music – Rhumba 4/4
Tempo – 44 measures of 4 beats per minute; 176 beats per minute
Pattern Timing – 1 =:15; 2 =:30; 3 =:45; 4 = 1:00

And for Samba, they are thinking more typically
https://www.ice-dance.com/site/reference/pattern-dance-descriptions-patterns/silver-samba/
Music – Samba 2/4
Tempo – 54 measures of 2 beats per minute

Note that from an ISU perspective, rhumba and samba do not have the same time signature, nor do they have the same number of beats per minute. If you slow down a samba to rhumba speed, you meet the bpm requirement, but the time signature requirement is dubious.

If you want to claim a team is doing their required rhumba to a samba, you are making a case for judges to give that team a music deduction, which should result in a complete down level for the rhumba sequence and an overall deduction as well, a devastating penalty, and one seldom given because the majority of the judges must vote to impose it.

Now "The Shape of You" to which Papadakis and Cizeron do their Rhumba was indeed written in 4/4 time. OTOH The remix version sounds samba to me, too, but I am not a judge, and at least the base rhythm is correct for rhumba, and the whole thing reads Latin to me. It is the second sector of their dance to "Thinking Out Loud" by Ed Sheeran, remastered by Karl Hugo, that does not sound like any recognizable Latin rhythm, despite having bongoes in the background, and their bio does not even tell me what the dancers think it is. Since they are doing their Pattern step to it, I wish it was an easily recognizable Latin rhythm. And it is supposed to sound like 172 – 180 beats per minute. And while the bongo may be in that range, they are skating to the melody, not the beat, (which is a Total timing No No in ice dance, and should affect their timing PCS) and the base Ed Sheeran piece's melody is way slow.

As to Virtue and Moir, they do their rhumba to a remix version of Hotel California. Hotel California is written in 4/4 too. But to me, the Hotel California version sounds rhumba. So they are ok fine imo for the Rhumba and the Pattern Step Sequence. OTOH The Sympathy for the Devil part just sounds like a mess to me. Their bio claims it is a samba, but I can't see it, maybe the bongo superimposed on it is 2/4, but I cannot stand it. And yes there is a requirement that one of the required rhythms be used for the no touch step, which is what they use it for. The "Cha Cha: Oye Como Va by Tito Puente performed by Santana" is used for a lift and their twizzles, so you are out of the realm of severe penalties (which the judges are not going to impose anyway.) Why they did not just go with Tito Puente version is a mystery to me, but since Tito was happy with Santana I would be more or less ok with it.

Yes, I would vote for the deductions for both teams, royally cursing Dubreuil and Lauzon who got such fine teams to make such annoying SD's. It is not like the world is not full of tons of Latin American songs to pick from.

Yes, this is picky picky, but it is annoying to an old time dance fan like me.

But once URs and flutzes were ok in singles. Some time some team is going to get slammed for a choice like this. Or the ISU will deal with it in the 2018-2019 or 2019-2020 version of the rules. I can only :pray:

Then I won't have to listen to my Latin American born son in law tell me how all the teams totally failed to convey anything of Latin American dance to him after he watches the Team Event in 2022.
 
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pearly

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
One correction Doris - VM's Hotel California is not a remix. The Eagles played that version during a concert/live album Hell Freezes Over. If that's considered a remix ok, I just want to get it out there that no one took the original song to a studio and added some beats. The Eagles played it.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x30pss5

I do love the fact new pieces of music are used for ice dance, especially Latin.
 

ancientpeas

The Notorious SEW
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
I hear latin when I listen to Shape of you.

And I don't understand the fuss about remixes. How many versions of despacito do you actually want to hear?
 
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