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Thread: Excuse me, but wasn't that an illegal move?

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    Excuse me, but wasn't that an illegal move?

    I was watching the Olympic team long program competition and saw the Italian team perform what I was told was an adagio move, the detroiter. When I read the list of legal pairs lifts the detoiter was among the moves expressly cited as illegal. Was this a move legal in the Olympics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlb57 View Post
    I was watching the Olympic team long program competition and saw the Italian team perform what I was told was an adagio move, the detroiter. When I read the list of legal pairs lifts the detoiter was among the moves expressly cited as illegal. Was this a move legal in the Olympics?
    The rules don't change just because it's the Olympics.

    If you're referring to the Italian dance team's rotational lift, that was not a Detroiter. The lady is upside down in the Detroiter.

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    It's not considered an adagio lift if it travels across the ice. Since the lift wasn't stationary, it's legal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fullmetalflamingo View Post
    It's not considered an adagio lift if it travels across the ice. Since the lift wasn't stationary, it's legal.
    Not strictly true, as the StaLi (Stationary Lift) is a legal lift in ice dance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlb57 View Post
    I was watching the Olympic team long program competition and saw the Italian team perform what I was told was an adagio move, the detroiter. When I read the list of legal pairs lifts the detoiter was among the moves expressly cited as illegal. Was this a move legal in the Olympics?
    Marchei/Hotarek didn't do a Detroiter and the move they did was legal.

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    Thank you all for the replies. I had been curious; now I have learned something new in my old age. Again, thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    Not strictly true, as the StaLi (Stationary Lift) is a legal lift in ice dance.
    I meant only for pairs... since we were talking about pairs... :P

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    I was also watching the team pairs long program, it was the Italian pair, Valentina Marchei/Ondrej Hotarek, 8th element I believe, the 5RLi4 in the protocol. In the NBC Olympic Ice post-show, the commentator, retired ice dancer Ben Agosto, said "…this lift going into a Detroiter, so difficult…" And it did look like the image Wikipedia has of a Detroiter, but Wikipedia also says it's illegal.

    So was Ben Agosto wrong in saying that move is the Detroiter? How was Marchei/Hotarek lift different from Detroiter described in Wikipedia? And when is this move legal vs illegal? Thank you all.

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    According to the pair technical panel handbook,

    Pair lifts are classified as follows:
    −Group One
    oArmpit Hold position
    −Group Two
    oWaist Hold position
    −Group Three
    oHand to Hip or upper part of the leg (above the knee) position
    −Group Four
    oHand to Hand position (Press Lift type)
    −Group Five
    oHand to Hand position (Lasso Lift type)

    In any Group
    -one hand hold may increase the difficulty of the lift.

    Minimum of one (1) and maximum of three and a half (3½) revolutions of the Man.

    Partners may give each other assistance only through:
    −hand-to-hand
    −hand-to-arm
    −hand-to-body
    −hand to upper part of the leg (above the knee) grips.
    Changes of hold or of the Lady’s position during the lift are permitted.
    An "illegal lift" is one with more than 3 1/2 revolutions of the man and/or with an illegal grip.

    A detroiter is a move in which the man rotates multiple times in place (i.e., does a two-foot spin), so that alone makes it illegal by the above definitions.

    Detroiter

    The classic detroiter position is with the man's hand between the lady's thighs as she squeezes them together in a tight, horizontal position above his head.

    That is the position that Marchei and Hotarek get into later during their 5R lift, although without multiple spins in place during it as in a true detroiter. Agosto was evidently referring to the position, not the move as a whole.

    In the past, a hand-to-upper-leg hold was always illegal, but the rules changed several years ago to allow it.

    What I'm not clear about is whether it would now be legal to do a Group 3 lift in which the hold during the initial lifting was with the man's hand between the lady's upper legs as in the link above . . . and then continuing as a normal pair lift with only 1 to 3 1/2 rotations moving across the ice. Generally the Group 3 hold is on one side of her hip or the outside of the top of her leg.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlb57 View Post
    Thank you all for the replies. I had been curious; now I have learned something new in my old age. Again, thank you.
    Welcome to the forum, and thank you for the interesting thread.

    Also a hearty welcome to Janus. Post often, post long!

    If I remember my figure skating history right, I believe that the Detroiter adagio lift was named after the famous Detroiter airplane. I guess the idea is that the lady looks like the propeller of an airplane going around. (?) This air[lane was manufactured in the early days of aviation abd was used by barnstornmers and people who wanted to set cross-country distance and speed records in the 1920s and 30s. This is what it looked like.

    https://www.uh.edu/engines/ruthelder.jpg

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    On the Ice Mathman's Avatar
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    I have a question about the issue of where the man is supposed to grab the lady in different kinds of lifts. Is this a requirement in the definition of certain lifts? It seems to me that you wouldn't really have much choice. You have to get the center of gravity over your skates. I assume that the cardinal rule of pairs skating is, "whatever happens, don't drop your partner."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I have a question about the issue of where the man is supposed to grab the lady in different kinds of lifts. Is this a requirement in the definition of certain lifts?
    Yes, the different lift groups are defined by the hold at the beginning of the lift:

    1 Hand-to-armpit
    2 Hand-to-waist
    3 Hand-to-hip (or upper leg)
    4 Hand-to-hand press (lady goes straight up facing the same direction she entered -- she may change positions after getting to full extension)
    5 Hand-to-hand lasso (lady rotates 1/2 or 1 rotation on the way up)
    There are 5 variations of Group 5: step, toe, axel, backward, reverse

    The base value of the lifts is based on the takeoff. Then the teams can also earn higher levels by doing various features, which may involve changing the hold after the it's up.

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    Thank you for the replies, especially gkelly, very through & very helpful. And Mathman, thanks for the welcome.

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