Ice Dance for men & ladies in 2022

GrandmaCC · Feb 24, 2018

Well, we’ve had another Russian Gold Medalist, and another 4,000 odd cries of “where is the ARTISTRY???”

Meanwhile, over in the Ice Dance, some exquisite footwork, choreography and musical interpretation quietly took place.

Since talking constructively about how to improve the judging system in singles degrades into nothing but a frenzy of “jumping bean!!!” “I want Michelle back!!!” and “where is the ART???!” - I propose a new solution.

Ice Dance for men and ladies each next Olympics.
This will not only appease the fans who prefer a judging emphasis on musicality, footwork, skating skills etc etc, but will also give options for skaters who are growing too tall or lack the jumping/spinning ability for singles and want to continue in the sport.
Not to mention it will allow skaters to take up dance without having to secure a partner, which can require importing a teammate from across the globe.
Will also allow older athletes to be competitive.

Thoughts?

anonymoose_au · Feb 24, 2018

You mean like Solo dance?

It sounds interesting, but the IOC wouldn't go for it, because it would require more competitors at the Olympics and the reason for denying Synchronised Skating a place was because of numbers issue.

I mean I guess skaters could perform in both disciplines if they wanted too, but it probably still wouldn't go over well.

Besides, I'm pretty sure those who are bemoaning the "jumping beans" still want to see jumps in skating, probably not so many, but still some.

GrandmaCC · Feb 24, 2018

anonymoose_au said:
You mean like Solo dance?

It sounds interesting, but the IOC wouldn't go for it, because it would require more competitors at the Olympics and the reason for denying Synchronised Skating a place was because of numbers issue.

I mean I guess skaters could perform in both disciplines if they wanted too, but it probably still wouldn't go over well.

Besides, I'm pretty sure those who are bemoaning the "jumping beans" still want to see jumps in skating, probably not so many, but still some.

Yes, I guess so. It seems to make sense, since that discipline judges primarily on everything that the “artistic” fanatics adore, and it is a pretty awesome event to watch.
Listen to Belinda the Talker really check off each element of the ice dance criteria (the nuance of music/tempo change, etc), it really drives home the importance and difficulty of everything that is skating.

I do get your point re jumps, though...maybe then something more along the lines of Pairs (non-dancing), that has seemed to be a pretty good balance between the two ends of argument. Those guys have great character, musicality, emphasis on footwork, and a few jumps, but that’s it.

I guess people are going to say that singles dance is essentially professional show dancing though, aren’t they.

Maybe a re-working of the SP & LP (which is probably due anyway) and an additional piece added, a purely artistic piece that is judged similar to free dance, which contributes to the overall score?

brens78 · Feb 24, 2018

If there was a solo category that with no jumping and all about musicality etc. Satoko would be on top of the podium

charmblade · Feb 24, 2018

Satoko and Jason for Gold! :biggrin:

GrandmaCC · Feb 24, 2018

brens78 said:
If there was a solo category that with no jumping and all about musicality etc. Satoko would be on top of the podium

And she’d still have her hip!

Sorry, that was literally the first thing that popped into my mind when I read that lol...but it is (likely) true, it’d be a good category for those who don’t have the bodies to tolerate intense jumping training.

And, it would let those who are super artistic shine and let those of us who are currently going “why is XYZ so special?” see what it is that is, indeed, special.
Same way it would see those who can casually bounce into a triple triple combo get appreciation for their skill.
Winning all-round

I gotta give Talking Belinda props, when you watch the whole group of skaters in order while hearing her counting revolutions and edges maniacally, it does illustrate exactly how much effort goes into every little thing, and makes you really realise that someone doing a level 4 step seq while making it look easy is DAMN GOOD.

More on Satoko: I watched her LP intently the other day, and I was actually far more impressed than normal. I felt she really emoted. Good on her for bringing it when it counted. Adam toning down his sass in his SP was such a let down....like, the judges aren’t going to suddenly think “hey, this routine isn’t a 2010 nightclub dance after all!” - just do your thing, dammit! **not a bash - I love that routine, so it killed me to see it not worked full out

Barb · Feb 24, 2018

Yes, definitely Satoko :love:

. Men: Jason and Patrick.

-----

edit. I have to add Shoma because I just saw him doing twizzles :biggrin:

http://magicaleggplant.tumblr.com/post/171238020338/hanyuyuzus-skating-train-crboyangjins

Suzzie · Feb 24, 2018

sounds very interesting. but it doesn't look real. for me it'd be great. more skating, less jumping. figure skating, not ice jumping. maybe Patrick will be back) yeah, I like this idea.
but don't think that IOC would be agree with me

Spinning · Feb 24, 2018

Dai and Mao for the gold! :points:

Mathman · Feb 24, 2018

Is the ISU talking about having a jumps-restricted "artistic" program starting next year?

The only problem I have with ice dance is the scoring. At the top level everyone gets 10s in everything and +3 GOES across the board. Who is the real winner?

moonvine · Feb 24, 2018

There's been talk (again I can't remember the thread) or at least a suggestion that the skaters do an athletic and an artistic program. Personally I think downgrading the jumps and upgrading the other elements would help. Why bother doing a beautiful level 4 step sequence when it's only worth a few points and not nearly as many as a jump, probably not even as many as a double axel?

Suzzie · Feb 24, 2018

Spinning said:
Dai and Mao for the gold!

more Dai v Patrick plz :love:

BillNeal · Feb 24, 2018

moonvine said:
There's been talk (again I can't remember the thread) or at least a suggestion that the skaters do an athletic and an artistic program.

Interesting. How could this be incorporated? The SP's right now serve as a qualifying for the LP, as well as deciding the skating groups in the LP. If they put one or the other first, wouldn't the skaters more proficient in the first portion be favoured going into the second portion? I guess it could encourage skaters to be more well rounded too.

rain · Feb 24, 2018

Mathman said:
Is the ISU talking about having a jumps-restricted "artistic" program starting next year?

The only problem I have with ice dance is the scoring. At the top level everyone gets 10s in everything and +3 GOES across the board. Who is the real winner?

The above would be my suggestion. Not exactly ice dance — but a limit on jumps to emphasize footwork, spins, choreography etc. I'd watch that. I barely watch mens these days because of the overemphasis on jumping quads, and it sounds like a similar thing may be coming in the ladies, if the quad and triple axel juniors survive a transition to seniors, and presumably, puberty. The jump-offs really hold little interest for me.

I hear you about the ice dance scoring. But it's really just an extension of the GOE and PCS problem in all the disciplines, namely that the judges are not properly applying it.

WeakAnkles · Feb 24, 2018

GrandmaCC said:
Yes, I guess so. It seems to make sense, since that discipline judges primarily on everything that the “artistic” fanatics adore, and it is a pretty awesome event to watch.
Listen to Belinda the Talker really check off each element of the ice dance criteria (the nuance of music/tempo change, etc), it really drives home the importance and difficulty of everything that is skating.

I do get your point re jumps, though...maybe then something more along the lines of Pairs (non-dancing), that has seemed to be a pretty good balance between the two ends of argument. Those guys have great character, musicality, emphasis on footwork, and a few jumps, but that’s it.

I guess people are going to say that singles dance is essentially professional show dancing though, aren’t they.

Maybe a re-working of the SP & LP (which is probably due anyway) and an additional piece added, a purely artistic piece that is judged similar to free dance, which contributes to the overall score?

I'd have more respect for this comment if you didn't use a phrase like "'artistic' fanatics."

Look, I can certainly respect the #1 and #2 Russian women's technical mastery. I can also respect someone who can eat 39 hot dogs in 3 minutes. Both move me in pretty much the same way: "Wow, they really go go go, don't they?" That's about all the emotional reaction generated.

And it's not why I'm a fan of the sport.

sadya · Feb 25, 2018

They once had a competition in the '90s with single skaters being judged on programs with no jumps. German skater Daniel Weiss won such a competition in 1997 or 1998 I believe. I didn't see that competition, but Weiss performed that program in a gala and then the commentator said that that routine had won the skating competition judged on dance only.

GrandmaCC · Feb 25, 2018

sadya said:
They once had a competition in the '90s with single skaters being judged on programs with no jumps. German skater Daniel Weiss won such a competition in 1997 or 1998 I believe. I didn't see that competition, but Weiss performed that program in a gala and then the commentator said that that routine had won the skating competition judged on dance only.

This made me think of Sasha’s gala skate in Torino, so many people said they didn’t notice that she didn’t jump.
Today the gala was on and Satoko, who I’m not typically a fan of - not a hater of, just not a fan - and WOW, she looked like a completely different skater. I was blown away. It was beautiful.

Maybe it’s the stress (understandably so) of packing in all the required elements which limits the artistry of skaters? How many times do commentators say “and now she can relax!! And perform!!” once all the difficult elements are done - personally my pet hate and why I hate front loading, I feel like the skater isn’t going to do their program and show their true skill until the last 45 seconds.
So a comp like the one you’ve mentioned, I’d love to see!

GrandmaCC · Feb 25, 2018

WeakAnkles said:
I'd have more respect for this comment if you didn't use a phrase like "'artistic' fanatics."

Look, I can certainly respect the #1 and #2 Russian women's technical mastery. I can also respect someone who can eat 39 hot dogs in 3 minutes. Both move me in pretty much the same way: "Wow, they really go go go, don't they?" That's about all the emotional reaction generated.

And it's not why I'm a fan of the sport.

Point taken. My apologies, there are some very vicious people out there, I guess they get under my skin a little!

That’s why I feel there really needs to be either a full on reworking of the “rules”, a seperate skate comprising just of dance/artistic components which contributes to the overall score, or a seperate discipline all together such as this.

I do love hard jumps, and admire the heck out of someone who can not only do them, but do them well, and after throwing down a level 4 in everything else. To me, someone who says a backloader does nothing in the first half is disrespecting everything they claim to be in favour of protecting; if StSq etc are so important to you...why no credit given for how hard they are to follow up with jumps? It’s not like the skater got level 1’s for everything else and relied on jumps.

I think the British guys described artistry the best when talking about Adam, saying that while the style wasn’t to their taste, the judges do have to respect what he did. That was the best nod to the subjective nature of artistry ever.

If we were to just leave to System as is, I see no reason why step sequence cannot be increased in value or be required for longer, why a bonus isn’t added for meeting some of Ice Dance criteria (like the stuff about noticeable shift in music etc etc), just a few little things, they would probably appease most people.

WeakAnkles · Feb 25, 2018

GrandmaCC said:
Point taken. My apologies, there are some very vicious people out there, I guess they get under my skin a little!

That’s why I feel there really needs to be either a full on reworking of the “rules”, a seperate skate comprising just of dance/artistic components which contributes to the overall score, or a seperate discipline all together such as this.

I do love hard jumps, and admire the heck out of someone who can not only do them, but do them well, and after throwing down a level 4 in everything else. To me, someone who says a backloader does nothing in the first half is disrespecting everything they claim to be in favour of protecting; if StSq etc are so important to you...why no credit given for how hard they are to follow up with jumps? It’s not like the skater got level 1’s for everything else and relied on jumps.

I think the British guys described artistry the best when talking about Adam, saying that while the style wasn’t to their taste, the judges do have to respect what he did. That was the best nod to the subjective nature of artistry ever.

If we were to just leave to System as is, I see no reason why step sequence cannot be increased in value or be required for longer, why a bonus isn’t added for meeting some of Ice Dance criteria (like the stuff about noticeable shift in music etc etc), just a few little things, they would probably appease most people.

Thank you. People value different things and I'm sure those who think step sequences are a waste of time that could be spent adding in another two jumping passes wouldn't like being called fanatics either. Just my take on it.

Reducing the number of jumping passes would help (I can only imagine what all these 3/3s and quads are going to do in the long term). And limiting the number of second half bonus jumps would also help to rebalance program construction. I mean, you can't blame the Russian women for taking advantage of the rules. They gamed the system. But I do have to laugh at how many people screeched to high heaven when Evan Lysacek won his Olympic gold for doing the exact same thing.

It would also help if judges stopped tying tech scores and PCS scores together. Or awarding PCS scores as clumps. Some skaters may not have the best skating skills but have wonderful performance skills and first rate choreography. Some skaters have wonderful skating skills but aren't the best interpreters of music. There's a tech panel. Why not a PCS panel as well?

Of course, as long as judging is tied to nationalism, the problems of judging bias won't go away. But that's another thread entirely...

Ice Dance for men & ladies in 2022

GrandmaCC

anonymoose_au

Insert weird opinion here

GrandmaCC

brens78

charmblade

GrandmaCC

Barb

Suzzie

Spinning

Mathman

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie

Suzzie

BillNeal

You Know I'm a FS Fan...

rain

WeakAnkles

sadya

GrandmaCC

GrandmaCC

WeakAnkles

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