Trusova and Quads | Page 28 | Golden Skate

Trusova and Quads

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion
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if you ever apply for that job, we will vote for you.
you can also have a campaign based on your superior knowledge on flash drive usage ;)

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Ummm, we are talking about 3A vs second quad. Both of your layouts have 3A in them.

Oh, so not a possibility of both... I see :laugh:
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Oh, so not a possibility of both... I see :laugh:

yeah dunno, i mean, people were saying "ohhhh why learn quads if you can learn a 3A, that is much more advantage than learning a second quad".
But for juniors, it does not seem to be advantage at all, since they cannot 3A in SP, and in FS 2quads seem beat 1quad and 3A.

Someone could do the math for 2quads and 3A vs 3 quads, this is where it becomes interesting.
 

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017

macy

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
upping this thread because i wanted to get some opinions on something that crossed my mind...

i have heard in the past that many young skaters quit around the time they learn a double axel and first triples. many skaters have a hard time learning them, and it can be a make or break point in a career. now with ladies elite skating taking a turn and becoming so much more technically difficult with triple axels and quads, do you think young skaters will shy away from trying to reach dreams of being on a world podium or olympic team one day, simply because those elements are so hard to achieve in ladies skating? as time goes on, i believe we will see more and more of these jumps, and they will become the standard to reach the top. i think we will see more ladies try them, many unsuccessfully, and it will be a small handful of skaters who can do them and will be podium contenders at any big event. since this group might be so exclusive, could this be a demotivating factor for up and coming girls?
 

yume

🍉
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Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Now that is those who have high tech contents who win, i don't think it will be demotivating. More girls will go for 3A and quads. The number of juniors who are trying them in comp and practices is already high.
Before, girls were not motivated to train those elements maybe because examples like Asada showed that you don't necessarily win with hard jumps. The girl had rotation issues and the cost of UR calls was savage in 2006-2010. Even with a clean skate, Kim could beat her TES with GOEs.
But now we have girls with solid jumps and high GOEs who can jump 3As and quads.
 

macy

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
Now that is those who have high tech contents who win, i don't think it will be demotivating. More girls will go for 3A and quads. The number of juniors who are trying them in comp and practices is already high.
Before, girls were not motivated to train those elements maybe because examples like Asada showed that you don't necessarily win with hard jumps. The girl had rotation issues and the cost of UR calls was savage in 2006-2010. Even with a clean skate, Kim could beat her TES with GOEs.
But now we have girls with solid jumps and high GOEs who can jump 3As and quads.

i guess i am referring to girls who haven't made a name for themselves yet versus those already competing internationally on any level. if they know how difficult it's becoming to get to the top and stay there, will that make them not want to even bother? for those who are yet to come on the international circuit, will we see shorter careers due to few podium finishes/the knowledge that they aren't able to compete with the very top skaters when they become seniors?
 

colormyworld240

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Dec 9, 2017
i guess i am referring to girls who haven't made a name for themselves yet versus those already competing internationally on any level. if they know how difficult it's becoming to get to the top and stay there, will that make them not want to even bother? for those who are yet to come on the international circuit, will we see shorter careers due to few podium finishes/the knowledge that they aren't able to compete with the very top skaters when they become seniors?

This is harsh, but if that's the case those skaters probably weren't meant for competitive skating anyway. Those who are really passionate and invested in the sport will see it as motivating to catch up with top skaters technically, or excel in other areas, or both! If the 3As/quads make you "not want to even bother", then it's probably not the right sport for them. Same goes for any competitive sport out there, and many aspects of life.
 

hippomoomin

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Agree. In gymnastics, Simone Biles is so much better than everyone else so that even with 2 falls she can still get Gold. Should other ladies even bother to learn new tricks and compete?
 

Noxchild

Medalist
Joined
Feb 14, 2018
Country
Canada
In the next few years there are going to be, what... 3-4 girls who are doing successful quads and 3As both in seniors and juniors? The cat's share of competitive spots will still go to girls who do only triples imo. Maybe in ten years though lol.
 

RobinA

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
upping this thread because i wanted to get some opinions on something that crossed my mind...

i have heard in the past that many young skaters quit around the time they learn a double axel and first triples. many skaters have a hard time learning them, and it can be a make or break point in a career. now with ladies elite skating taking a turn and becoming so much more technically difficult with triple axels and quads, do you think young skaters will shy away from trying to reach dreams of being on a world podium or olympic team one day, simply because those elements are so hard to achieve in ladies skating? as time goes on, i believe we will see more and more of these jumps, and they will become the standard to reach the top. i think we will see more ladies try them, many unsuccessfully, and it will be a small handful of skaters who can do them and will be podium contenders at any big event. since this group might be so exclusive, could this be a demotivating factor for up and coming girls?

Yes, when the technical requirements are upped a certain number of skaters are lost in the process. Men and ladies. Look at Jason Browne. Personally, his kind of skating was why I got interested in skating many moons ago. I would rather watch him and people who skate like he does, not that there are many, than almost any of the men out there. But he's having a problem getting to the top because he can't do a quad. Skating currently doesn't value what he has to offer, which I think is plenty, and it's skating's loss. I think it is possible to have a scoring system that values both, but right now we aren't there. It's a choice the governing bodies make. I will probably not be following skating for much longer, but there may be a different kind of fans to take my place who like the jump-fest quality that skating is becoming. At least, skating better hope there are.

I do think it is demotivating. The more difficult the technical requirements are the fewer people who can do them. It's not always a matter of more, more, more practice will allow you to do a Quad. Particularly in Ladies, where a normal female body makes this kind of jumping difficult to impossible. It depends on how far a person (male or female) is willing to go to become able to do the jump. Restricted eating, repetition leading to wrecked bodies... It's all there right now and will only get worse as the technical requirement increase.
 

RobinA

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
This is harsh, but if that's the case those skaters probably weren't meant for competitive skating anyway. Those who are really passionate and invested in the sport will see it as motivating to catch up with top skaters technically, or excel in other areas, or both! If the 3As/quads make you "not want to even bother", then it's probably not the right sport for them. Same goes for any competitive sport out there, and many aspects of life.

I was reading an article the other day on the continuing gymnastics debacle and someone made the comment that they wanted to see the gymnastics federation be able to make gymnastics safe for its participants. They weren't just talking about the sex issues, but the training methods, etc. It struck me that the ship as sailed on that, gymnastics is NOT particularly safe for gymnasts when practiced on the top levels - it requires too much unnatural stuff done to young (particularly in the case of the women) bodies to make it to the top. I then thought about how skating is behind gymnastics in this respect, but it is coming on strong. I believe that women having to do quads and 3As just to have any chance of success will not be a healthy development for the sport or its participants.
 

macy

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
Yes, when the technical requirements are upped a certain number of skaters are lost in the process. Men and ladies. Look at Jason Browne. Personally, his kind of skating was why I got interested in skating many moons ago. I would rather watch him and people who skate like he does, not that there are many, than almost any of the men out there. But he's having a problem getting to the top because he can't do a quad. Skating currently doesn't value what he has to offer, which I think is plenty, and it's skating's loss. I think it is possible to have a scoring system that values both, but right now we aren't there. It's a choice the governing bodies make. I will probably not be following skating for much longer, but there may be a different kind of fans to take my place who like the jump-fest quality that skating is becoming. At least, skating better hope there are.

I do think it is demotivating. The more difficult the technical requirements are the fewer people who can do them. It's not always a matter of more, more, more practice will allow you to do a Quad. Particularly in Ladies, where a normal female body makes this kind of jumping difficult to impossible. It depends on how far a person (male or female) is willing to go to become able to do the jump. Restricted eating, repetition leading to wrecked bodies... It's all there right now and will only get worse as the technical requirement increase.

i agree about Jason Brown. besides Yuzu and Shoma, he is one of my current favorite male skaters to watch because of his skating skills and artistry. he truly is one of the best in the sport, and unfortunately this system doesn't reward it.

I wish they would make components worth a little more than jumps, or maybe reduce the number of jumps in mens and ladies so more skating can actually be shown. also...ISU pls bring back spiral sequences. that was one thing that contributed to more artistry and actual skating being lost in the last few years. if it were my choice, i would reduce the number of jumping passes to 6 in a long program (jump values would still be the same), keep the same number of spins (maybe increase the value a little), add back in spiral sequences for ladies or if flexibility isn't a strength for someone, a 2nd footwork sequence (also adding more value to these elements) and make components worth a bit more than the technical side. the fact that artistry isn't valued the way it should be does make it clear that jumps are the bulk of what competitive skating is, and that's unfortunate for those who have amazing artistry and skating skills like jason but struggle with the jumps. i just wish the system could give more of a chance to these skaters to be farther up the standings than they are, without taking away from those who are really good at jumping.
 

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
i agree about Jason Brown. besides Yuzu and Shoma, he is one of my current favorite male skaters to watch because of his skating skills and artistry. he truly is one of the best in the sport, and unfortunately this system doesn't reward it.

Unfortunately it is a sport and jumps and technical content have to count to pick placements. The ISU really needs to come up with a pro-circult to allow artistic and older skaters to maintain and grow the fan base.
 

macy

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
Unfortunately it is a sport and jumps and technical content have to count to pick placements. The ISU really needs to come up with a pro-circult to allow artistic and older skaters to maintain and grow the fan base.

oh yeah i agree with you, and i wouldn't want to see any jumps be devalued at all. i just wish the system really was 50/50 or even 60/40 on actual skating and components to technical skills.
 

Fluture

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 26, 2018
Honestly, I admire Sasha and Anna for their guts and determination but I can’t help but see what the quads are doing to men‘s skating and wonder. I don‘t want competitions full of ladies (young girls more rather) trying to do the ultra-c elements but failing and falling all the time. Splatfests like these are... not that great to watch, at least not for me. I would be fine if it was only a selected few who were doing them... Sasha, Anna... but if there is indeed a revolution like many are ready to proclaim here, I personally will overthink whether or not to continue watching this sport. It‘s just my opinion and I know many will disagree with me. I know all the arguments. I know it‘s a sport, I know it develops. That‘s fine and natural probably. It‘s just that for me the artistry and passion in a performance will always be > jumps. It’s just a personal opinion but if I see a skater with an admittedly very well executed and crazily difficult 4Lz-3T combo but also a fall on another quad plus a step out on a popped 2T win over a flawless skater who didn’t make any mistakes, showed mature interpretation and pure skating skills and just lost because she didn‘t attempt an ultra-c element... it‘s - for me at least - a bad sign. It‘s only what I feel and it has nothing to do with Sasha or Anna whatsoever. Some will like the direction the sport is heading to, some won‘t and some will be doubtful. I‘m in the last category - for now at least.
Like I said, if the “quad revolution“ was be restricted to a selected few, I‘d be fine. I could admire them and their determination but also enjoy watching performances who put the aspect on other things, only have ”easier“ jumps and not have a quad disrupt the performance. (Again, just a personal feeling but that‘s what Sasha‘s quads are doing currently to me. The landings are either too rough or she falls. They are exciting but... yeah, well, the other parts of the performance kind of suffer FOR ME AT LEAST) But if I had to watch ladies splatting all over the ice program after program... I think I‘d gratefully pass. It remains to be seen how this all works out.

(I know I said like a million times in this post ”only my opinion“ or “only how I feel like“ but I just feel obligated to state this so others don‘t attack me for insulting Sasha or something... :biggrin: )
 

maggieanne

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Joined
May 25, 2018
Country
United-States
upping this thread because i wanted to get some opinions on something that crossed my mind...

i have heard in the past that many young skaters quit around the time they learn a double axel and first triples. many skaters have a hard time learning them, and it can be a make or break point in a career. now with ladies elite skating taking a turn and becoming so much more technically difficult with triple axels and quads, do you think young skaters will shy away from trying to reach dreams of being on a world podium or olympic team one day, simply because those elements are so hard to achieve in ladies skating? as time goes on, i believe we will see more and more of these jumps, and they will become the standard to reach the top. i think we will see more ladies try them, many unsuccessfully, and it will be a small handful of skaters who can do them and will be podium contenders at any big event. since this group might be so exclusive, could this be a demotivating factor for up and coming girls?

The skaters that are quitting at that time are not skaters that were ever competing to try and make world podiums, they were skaters that competed as a fun hobby. From an American teen's point of view, skaters quitting tends to coincide with them starting high school, looking more toward this future, and wanting to hang out with friends more. There is this idea that once you're a high schooler if you continue to do a sport then its what you are supposed to spend all your time on and if skating is just a hobby to you, not a career, that makes it a lot less fun. For example, every gymnast I know quit when they got to high school because it was just too much. I think the difficulty of learning triples probably adds to the desire to quit, but I don't think its the main reason so I don't think quads will necessarily change that. Top skaters usually learn they're triples quite a bit younger than their peers so I feel like they are kind of in a different category than the average young skater.
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
I was reading an article the other day on the continuing gymnastics debacle and someone made the comment that they wanted to see the gymnastics federation be able to make gymnastics safe for its participants. They weren't just talking about the sex issues, but the training methods, etc. It struck me that the ship as sailed on that, gymnastics is NOT particularly safe for gymnasts when practiced on the top levels - it requires too much unnatural stuff done to young (particularly in the case of the women) bodies to make it to the top. I then thought about how skating is behind gymnastics in this respect, but it is coming on strong. I believe that women having to do quads and 3As just to have any chance of success will not be a healthy development for the sport or its participants.

Agree with this. In the wake of the sex abuse, a lot of other stuff has been coming out about the degrading training conditions, borderline starvation diets, being pressured to train/compete while injured, etc.

It's one thing to make these choices as an adult, but for children? It's messed up.
 

Max Millennial

Match Penalty
Joined
Jul 25, 2018
i agree about Jason Brown. besides Yuzu and Shoma, he is one of my current favorite male skaters to watch because of his skating skills and artistry. he truly is one of the best in the sport, and unfortunately this system doesn't reward it.

I wish they would make components worth a little more than jumps, or maybe reduce the number of jumps in mens and ladies so more skating can actually be shown. also...ISU pls bring back spiral sequences. that was one thing that contributed to more artistry and actual skating being lost in the last few years. if it were my choice, i would reduce the number of jumping passes to 6 in a long program (jump values would still be the same), keep the same number of spins (maybe increase the value a little), add back in spiral sequences for ladies or if flexibility isn't a strength for someone, a 2nd footwork sequence (also adding more value to these elements) and make components worth a bit more than the technical side. the fact that artistry isn't valued the way it should be does make it clear that jumps are the bulk of what competitive skating is, and that's unfortunate for those who have amazing artistry and skating skills like jason but struggle with the jumps. i just wish the system could give more of a chance to these skaters to be farther up the standings than they are, without taking away from those who are really good at jumping.

What else shall they do because-americans-cant? :palmf:
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
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Mar 3, 2014
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What else shall they do because-americans-cant? :palmf:

Nothing to do with "Americans", my friend:biggrin:

Now, this is gettting far afield from Trusova and quads, and I apologize, but:

Jason Brown is a skilled skater with wonderful spins and skating and just about everything but jumps. :clap: The system does not reward him and that makes me sad.:sad21: Misha Ge was a skater with all the gifts, except jumps. The system did not reward him, and that makes me sad. Deniss Vasiljevs (yes, he could develop a quad, but the system should reward him *now*). Donovan Carrillo, who doesn't even have a stable 3A, but what a talent. All should be rewarded:hap57: And only one is an American.....

And if someone says "It's a sport, darn it", I don't know whether to bring out the old lady cane or, since it's makes no sense to me as an argument, just go to bed:bed:

I am not in this thread because I've watched Trusova maybe twice? Maybe? I just don't care about girls and quads.:confused2: Others do and that's fine and they should talk about it.


Sorry for the :eek:topic: back to your regularly scheduled thread:)
 
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