Trusova and Quads

andromache · Mar 12, 2018

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Okay. So let's not enjoy or appreciate feats being done today, and just get hung up on longevity and if a skater can maintain their form.

Every time a skater does an impressive act there are always those whose first remarks are not acknowledging/lauding the feat but criticizing it. I mean, hey, there's no rules saying you have to respect skaters or give them some kudos more than simply try to tear them down. YMMV.

On a side note: why is it an issue that a skater like Radionova can't maintain her technical ability and consistency? It's not really news that skaters' bodies change. And she has had many achievements in spite of it, including medaling in the GP in every season. Including a win in 2016-2017.

IMO, there's nothing wrong with being impressed but also skeptical for the future. What's wrong with both? I don't think there's anyone here who is NOT impressed by a girl landing two different quads in an LP. Just because they'd rather discuss the future (which is just a more interesting topic than YAY CONGRATS SASHA) doesn't mean they aren't impressed or don't respect the skater.

Re: Radionova - I know I'm not the only fan who wants to see skaters have long and successful careers. I want to see top skaters who get better as they age and can compete into their 20s. If instead it becomes the norm that men, pairs, and ice dancers can all have long careers at or near the top of the sport, but ladies get pushed out by younger girls at 17/18, yeah, that sucks. Other than (maybe) Russia, that's not really happening yet, and I'm glad. Some of us don't enjoy seeing young, vulnerable girls fall from the top of their sport and go from "the next big thing" to "washed-up" overnight.

Mawwerg · Mar 12, 2018

I think Radionova isn't worse now then she was five, three or one years ago. Just several other skaters found the way to improve while she was not able to do it. She has 206.82 personal best this season. It's less than five points lower then her highest score.

moriel · Mar 12, 2018

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Okay. So let's not enjoy or appreciate feats being done today, and just get hung up on longevity and if a skater can maintain their form.

Every time a skater does an impressive act there are always those whose first remarks are not acknowledging/lauding the feat but criticizing it. I mean, hey, there's no rules saying you have to respect skaters or give them some kudos more than simply try to tear them down. YMMV.

On a side note: why is it an issue that a skater like Radionova can't maintain her technical ability and consistency? It's not really news that skaters' bodies change. And she has had many achievements in spite of it, including medaling in the GP in every season. Including a win in 2016-2017.

In case of Radionova, i see the following issues:

1. She had a pretty meh jump technique even as a junior. It worked for her then, but stopped working well enough as she grew up.
2. Russia had tons of talented new juniors turning seniors - Medvedeva, Zagitova, Sotskova... They kinda pushed Elena out of the Worlds and Euros team. If you look, its not like Radio's scores dropped - but what used to be good before is not good anymore.

Manitou · Mar 12, 2018

Shayuki said:
Pretty different cases, Radionova and Trusova.

No two cases are ever mathematically equal. I am talking about the concept - a child doing things only children can do, then growing to a mature person and thus losing those abilities.
When I was twelve I could climb every possible tree to the very top without any harness. Just like that. It was dumb, but I could do it. I am glad I didn't try it again in my 20s.

Spirals for Miles · Mar 12, 2018

chuckm said:
The next ladies JW frontier will be landing two quads and two 3As in the FS. Wanna bet there's someone in Eteri's camp who's gearing up to do just that? Move over, Sasha!

Sofia Akatieva, I'm calling

Imagine · Mar 12, 2018

Manitou said:
When I was twelve I could climb every possible tree to the very top without any harness. Just like that. It was dumb, but I could do it. I am glad I didn't try it again in my 20s.

Well, maybe if you trained everyday starting from when you were 12, you’d have been climbing mountains by your 20’s.

Shayuki · Mar 12, 2018

Manitou said:
No two cases are ever mathematically equal. I am talking about the concept - a child doing things only children can do, then growing to a mature person and thus losing those abilities.
When I was twelve I could climb every possible tree to the very top without any harness. Just like that. It was dumb, but I could do it. I am glad I didn't try it again in my 20s.

Radionova was not doing "things only children can" - She just was doing normal, lower quality, smallish triple jumps that was not even an especially difficult layout. This was at a time when skaters were indeed doing 7 triple programs. This was nothing special in any shape or form. Radionova just was good for her age but she was absolutely not doing "things only children can".

Trusova isn't only doing things "children can" because she's the first child to do quads. If you want to count heavily UR quads, Miki Ando did land ones with similar quality to her 14yo ones even as an adult, for example as a 21-year-old: here She's the best example of a lady doing 4S and hers stayed the same - Still just as underrotated. But this one wasn't even a downgrade(Unlike some of hers at 14) and she was 21 here. So the only comparable there is did not even lose her jumps.

In this case I'm sure you realize the sample size is too small to generalize. People are individuals.

Manitou · Mar 12, 2018

Imagine said:
Well, maybe if you trained everyday starting from when you were 12, you’d have been climbing mountains by your 20’s.

LOL! Yes, possibly I missed my life's biggest opportunity!

Manitou · Mar 12, 2018

Shayuki said:
In this case I'm sure you realize the sample size is too small to generalize. People are individuals.

Again - it will be really big if she can do it three-four years from now adding mature PCS to it. Then we will be able to talk history.
And it's also very subjective too - I simply don't want figure skating to become a children contest. It's not why I like this sport. I am really scared of a situation where even Zagitova might be too old.

andromache · Mar 12, 2018

Manitou said:
Again - it will be really big if she can do it three-four years from now adding mature PCS to it. Then we will be able to talk history.
And it's also very subjective too - I simply don't want figure skating to become a children contest. It's not why I like this sport. I am really scared of a situation where even Zagitova might be too old.

I mean....I largely agree with you (which you know almost never happens lol), but come on, Trusova landing two different quads in her LP is a HUGE accomplishment right now in 2018, even if she can't do it 3-4 years from now with mature PCS. She's a fantastic enough jumper that, while I don't expect her to keep her quads through puberty, I expect her to be extremely competitive with all the triples she needs to be at the top of seniors.

Shayuki · Mar 12, 2018

Manitou said:
Again - it will be really big if she can do it three-four years from now adding mature PCS to it. Then we will be able to talk history.
And it's also very subjective too - I simply don't want figure skating to become a children contest. It's not why I like this sport. I am really scared of a situation where even Zagitova might be too old.

I disagree. It already is really big and we already are able to talk history. Sheesh, I really don't get this attitude. It's a junior competition and she's a junior lady - What exactly are you asking for? What she does in 2 years she does in 2 years, but she already made history.

Your preferences are one thing but I don't see how that has anything at all to do with what Trusova has been able to do or will be able to do in the future.

tars · Mar 12, 2018

Spirals for Miles said:
Sofia Akatieva, I'm calling

Imo, Akatieva has better air position and rotation speed than Sasha. Pretty high vertical jump as well, still can't say yet (she's 10), if she'll get on Sasha's stratosphere level.

cell · Mar 12, 2018

Shayuki said:
. 180 degrees of pre-rotation is allowed and even typical for these jumps. A quad is 3.25 revolutions, not 4.

Are you talking about edge jumps? Does the ISU rulebook address this?

russianfan · Mar 12, 2018

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Okay. So let's not enjoy or appreciate feats being done today, and just get hung up on longevity and if a skater can maintain their form.

Every time a skater does an impressive act there are always those whose first remarks are not acknowledging/lauding the feat but criticizing it. I mean, hey, there's no rules saying you have to respect skaters or give them some kudos more than simply try to tear them down. YMMV.

On a side note: why is it an issue that a skater like Radionova can't maintain her technical ability and consistency? It's not really news that skaters' bodies change. And she has had many achievements in spite of it, including medaling in the GP in every season. Including a win in 2016-2017.

and she still remains the only female junior to win JWC two times... but it looks like Sasha is going to easily repeat this, barring injuries of course... with her current layout i just don't see even a slightest possibility to beat her, if she doesn't fall at least on one quad(or if she rotates at least one quad)...
Now people even compare Sasha with Kolyada, saying that she's got higher technical score than Kolyada at Olympics... that's how ridiculous her score is :biggrin:

CanadianSkaterGuy · Mar 12, 2018

moriel said:
In case of Radionova, i see the following issues:

1. She had a pretty meh jump technique even as a junior. It worked for her then, but stopped working well enough as she grew up.
2. Russia had tons of talented new juniors turning seniors - Medvedeva, Zagitova, Sotskova... They kinda pushed Elena out of the Worlds and Euros team. If you look, its not like Radio's scores dropped - but what used to be good before is not good anymore.

Often we see skaters dwindle. But they have two options:

1) Skate easier jumps, have less injury risk, and don't win when you're a junior. Then when you turn senior, start training harder jumps and have a slower ascent to the top - if you even get there.
2) Skate harder jumps, risk injury, win when you're a junior. Then when you turn senior, you've got hard jumps under your belt and can rise quickly to the top.

Trusova had the option to make history with quads, and sealing her gold medal at WJC which before wasn't assured (note she only won the JGPF by a mere 1.03 points).... or she could keep the same content, avoid quads, land 7 triples like everyone else and lose out to Kostornaia. What's the obvious choice? At this point you want the WIN, you don't care if your career could have 3-4 more years (and even that isn't assured).

If Zagitova hadn't won the OGM because she trained a safer/easier jump layout this past season.... and training safer gave her 4 more years of a career, but she never won the OGM, she would always look back and wonder "Man, maybe I should have risked more for a better payoff back when I was capable of doing it." (see: Medvedeva not fully backloading)

IMO it's better to start off getting the glory and then potentially dwindle, rather than to play it safe and then your ascent to the top is harder and not even a guarantee. Especially in Russia where skaters are so easily replaced.

To me, I'd rather have a 5 year career and one Olympic gold because I risked it all, rather than a 10 year career and no Olympic medal because I played it safe.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Mar 12, 2018

russianfan said:
and she still remains the only female junior to win JWC two times... but it looks like Sasha is going to easily repeat this, barring injuries of course... with her current layout i just don't see even a slightest possibility to beat her, if she doesn't fall at least on one quad(or if she rotates at least one quad)...
Now people even compare Sasha with Kolyada, saying that she's got higher technical score than Kolyada at Olympics... that's how ridiculous her score is

It will be interesting to see if Trusova will be able to maintain these quads. So far, it looks like her quads get stronger with time. But next season/puberty/etc. could change things. That's why it was great to see her do it now - no matter what happens, she will always have her place in history.

Yeah, Sasha's score was higher than Kolyada's at the Olympics. She also had the 7th highest TES of the men at Worlds last year (ahead of Brown/Kolyada/etc.). If she had been given a footwork sequence and an extra jumping pass (say, a 2A, since she can't do a 3A... yet), her TES would have been about 98 -- enough to have easily had 3rd highest TES in the FS at 2016 Worlds (ahead of Hanyu/Kolyada/Uno/Chan/etc.'s TES) :eek:

Shayuki · Mar 12, 2018

Spirals for Miles said:
Sofia Akatieva, I'm calling

It would be all sorts of fun if she went to the junior nationals next season at 11 years of age and landed a couple of quads.

tars said:
Imo, Akatieva has better air position and rotation speed than Sasha. Pretty high vertical jump as well, still can't say yet (she's 10), if she'll get on Sasha's stratosphere level.

Well, you don't need to add "imo" there. Akatieva's aerial rotation position is perfection itself and she definitely rotates faster. In addition, she reaches her aerial rotation position faster than anyone else I've seen.

Now, while I doubt she reaches Sasha's jump height with that rotation she wouldn't need to. Triple Axel and quad Salchow should just about be there already and hence I also expect a quad Toe Loop very soon.

andromache · Mar 12, 2018

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
IMO it's better to start off getting the glory and then potentially dwindle, rather than to play it safe and then your ascent to the top is harder and not even a guarantee. Especially in Russia where skaters are so easily replaced.

To me, I'd rather have a 5 year career and one Olympic gold because I risked it all, rather than a 10 year career and no Olympic medal because I played it safe.

While that's probably the case, it doesn't mean that we as fans have to enjoy skaters being replaced and fizzling out before they hit their artistic potential. (This would be less of an issue if artistry/skating skills were being judged more accurately, but they're not, and blah blah blah it's a sport. I get it.)

Not to mention the psychological trauma this can have on young and vulnerable girls. They're children. They're not going into this with the full understanding of risk versus reward, and they aren't planning for life at 17 or 18 without skating. When the glory starts to dwindle, many of these girls will deal with eating disorders, depression, etc.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Mar 12, 2018

andromache said:
While that's probably the case, it doesn't mean that we as fans have to enjoy skaters being replaced and fizzling out before they hit their artistic potential. (This would be less of an issue if artistry/skating skills were being judged more accurately, but they're not, and blah blah blah it's a sport. I get it.)

Not to mention the psychological trauma this can have on young and vulnerable girls. They're children. They're not going into this with the full understanding of risk versus reward, and they aren't planning for life at 17 or 18 without skating. When the glory starts to dwindle, many of these girls will deal with eating disorders, depression, etc.

Some fans are fickle... one minute they're saying a ladies skater is risking themselves by training a quad. The next they're saying that a ladies skater needs to add a 3A if they want to contend. They will worry about their health one moment and then create fantasy program layouts the next.

I understand that these are all risks. But this is figure skating, where risk of injury is always prevalent. Triple-triples are now the standard and I'm sure a couple years ago people would have said that skaters should only do doubles because triples are more injurious to youngsters.

While it's important for the coach and parents to consider and monitor the health of the skater, the skater themselves have to take some responsibility for how hard they push themselves and understand the consequences. Often as young people, they don't realize that, which is sad... or they do and the choice of "take care of yourself now and maybe win later or never" is much less appealing than "win now and worry later". No skater wants to regret how many medals they could have won or what level they could have ascended to had they pushed themselves and tried harder or risked more (I certainly regret it a bit - even though I'm still proud of what I was able to do, plus skating wasn't my life, while for these girls it is). Some skaters are content playing it safe but not being a contender, and the love of skating is good enough.

Maybe it's an alternative thread, but I wonder what people's "ideal" timeline for a female skater learning 3-3/quad/3A safely would be? Like, wait for puberty to be done? Waiting till you've had a senior career of at least 5 years?

CanadianSkaterGuy · Mar 12, 2018

Manitou said:
Again - it will be really big if she can do it three-four years from now adding mature PCS to it. Then we will be able to talk history.
And it's also very subjective too - I simply don't want figure skating to become a children contest. It's not why I like this sport. I am really scared of a situation where even Zagitova might be too old.

Um, what does maturity have to do with technical achievements? We can talk history now. Trusova landed two quads, including the first quad toe.

Nobody cares that Ito had maturity or not when she landed the first ever 3A, or that Ando was a junior when she entered the record books with the first 4S. Nobody questioned Vice/Trent for not being top skaters with the first throw quad. Nobody cares that Mroz was a second-tier US skater, lacking maturity, when he landed the first quad lutz.

Same applies to Trusova. She made history. Period.

Trusova and Quads

andromache

Mawwerg

moriel

Manitou

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion

Imagine

Shayuki

Manitou

Manitou

andromache

Shayuki

tars

cell

russianfan

Match Penalty

CanadianSkaterGuy

CanadianSkaterGuy

Shayuki

andromache

CanadianSkaterGuy

CanadianSkaterGuy

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