Trusova and Quads | Page 17 | Golden Skate

Trusova and Quads

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Not to mention the psychological trauma this can have on young and vulnerable girls. They're children. They're not going into this with the full understanding of risk versus reward, and they aren't planning for life at 17 or 18 without skating. When the glory starts to dwindle, many of these girls will deal with eating disorders, depression, etc.

Fans recall Yulia Lipnitskaia's triumphs, but how many remember her dejected, tearful face at her last competition, COR 2016, where she finished dead last. She continued to skate despite having injured herself, knowing that her career was over at 18.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
IMO, there's nothing wrong with being impressed but also skeptical for the future. What's wrong with both? I don't think there's anyone here who is NOT impressed by a girl landing two different quads in an LP. Just because they'd rather discuss the future (which is just a more interesting topic than YAY CONGRATS SASHA) doesn't mean they aren't impressed or don't respect the skater.

For me its a tie as to which is more interesting: YAY SASHA or the future. A bird in the hand or two in the bush. :yes:
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
To me, I'd rather have a 5 year career and one Olympic gold because I risked it all, rather than a 10 year career and no Olympic medal because I played it safe.

For Zagitova it's really 2 years with one OGM at the end. I really hope it will continue, but right now it's just 2 years.

Nevertheless, the question is very valid. What career is better? Short with a grand slam, or a long one with secondary prizes?
Are you really saying Sarah Hughes's career is more valuable than that of Carolina Costner or Michelle Kwan's? Or even Ashley Wagner's?

I really like what is happening in the Russian figure skating, as for me it's a return to their glorious USSR past. However, for the ladies it's getting a bit too extreme and I am finding myself really detached from all those meteoric Russian kids who disappear even faster than they appear.
That's the reason why I state that Evgenia's OGM would have been more beneficial for FS's image and interest than Alina's.

Imagine that Evgenia is going through a rapid body change, as she is way overdue with that now. In a normal country she would struggle internationally for a season or two, but then with a hard work she would have a chance for a comeback. In Russia she has no chance with all those countless Trusovas and Kostornaias, not mentioning Zagitovas. Once she is gone then she is gone.
 

andromache

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Fans recall Yulia Lipnitskaia's triumphs, but how many remember her dejected, tearful face at her last competition, COR 2016, where she finished dead last. She continued to skate despite having injured herself, knowing that her career was over at 18.

Basically this. I am less concerned about physical injury (plenty of skaters go through pretty bad injuries and surgeries and overcome them, and even Plushenko can still walk lol) and more concerned about the long-term impact on their self-esteem and mental health. It's easy to say "oh well at least Yulia has that gold medal from Sochi!" But maybe she would be a happier and healthier person if she didn't starve herself for an entire season (or longer) and didn't experience the abrupt rise and fall of her career. I have no doubt her experiences have made her a stronger person, but I don't get excited at the prospect of there being MORE girls who have been through what she has, medals or no.

In general, professional athletes should not peak at 15, when they're literally still children. A professional sport should be dominated by ADULTS. Y'know, people who are old enough to legally work as many hours as they want and not have to worry about school and who are considered old enough to make their own decisions in regards to their careers and health.

(There's always going to be exceptions, which is fine, but I do not want ladies skating to turn into athletes who peak at 15 and a bunch of "old ladies" who will never beat the latest and great young thing. We aren't there yet, but we can still worry about it happening in the future.)
 

Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
I really like what is happening in the Russian figure skating, as for me it's a return to their glorious USSR past. However, for the ladies it's getting a bit too extreme and I am finding myself really detached from all those meteoric Russian kids who disappear even faster than they appear.
It's a transitional period. It should eventually settle down, after several layers of rapid improvement. Eventually it will cap somewhere. The cap is probably going to be pretty high, though... I doubt Trusova's done.
 

Izabela

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
For Zagitova it's really 2 years with one OGM at the end. I really hope it will continue, but right now it's just 2 years.

Nevertheless, the question is very valid. What career is better? Short with a grand slam, or a long one with secondary prizes?
Are you really saying Sarah Hughes's career is more valuable than that of Carolina Costner or Michelle Kwan's? Or even Ashley Wagner's?

I really like what is happening in the Russian figure skating, as for me it's a return to their glorious USSR past. However, for the ladies it's getting a bit too extreme and I am finding myself really detached from all those meteoric Russian kids who disappear even faster than they appear.
That's the reason why I state that Evgenia's OGM would have been more beneficial for FS's image and interest than Alina's.

While I don't think Evgenia getting an OGM would be good for FS's image (since I think it would actually reinforce what's been wrong about FS since Sochi) I agree with you about the meteoric rise and fall of Russian skaters. More than anything else, I think it really has to do with putting too much emphasis on the technical side of skating and the (judges?) being too liberal on PCS. I would rather see these skaters develop their maturity in skating in terms of musicality, choreography, and/or presentation than trying to only have their names up there because they made the difficult jumps. I do hope this is the path Trusova (and Zagitova) wants to take.

I actually fear for these young ladies when they grow up and have to beat their "young selves" in terms of technical difficulties since they would most likely lose their flexibility. I want to see them in their 20s with programs that will be memorable, that we can go back to and just rewatch not because of the jumps, but because it feels complete.

This is what makes Michelle Kwan's Lyra Angelica highly rewatchable (although she was only 18 there but still). I think aiming to have that kind of program attached to your name is good for FS' image more than anything else.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I really like what is happening in the Russian figure skating, as for me it's a return to their glorious USSR past.

This is a strange perspective, The USSR was certainly glorious. But not in ladies figure skating. Was there even one women's (or men's) world or Olympic champion from the USSR, ever? This boom in ladies figure skating seems like an entirely new direction rather than a return to the marvels of days gone by.
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
This is what makes Michelle Kwan's Lyra Angelica highly rewatchable (although she was only 18 there but still).

It's a very valid point! Other than being historical - how rewatchable is Trusova's performance? I watched it once and it's enough for me. I don't think I will ever come back to it. Yes, she had those quads, I acknowledge it, but other than that it's just a child's performance with very rushed components.
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
This is a strange perspective, The USSR was certainly glorious. But not in ladies figure skating.

I am looking at the entire spectrum. The ladies is a part of the whole thing for me. Plus the results of the recent JWC, the number of their clubs, the amount of energy in the entire Russian FS. I think the ladies are just the symptom of the entire revival rather than a detached phenomenon.
 

Nightcrawler

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
This is a strange perspective, The USSR was certainly glorious. But not in ladies figure skating. Was there even one women's (or men's) world or Olympic champion from the USSR, ever? This boom in ladies figure skating seems like an entirely new direction rather than a return to the marvels of days gone by.

I don't think there has ever been a Soviet World Champion (commentators had noted Butyrskaya was the very first Russian/Soviet one and Slutskaya was the first Russian European Champion). Aleksandr Fadeev won Worlds somewhere in the 80s IIRC.
So the Russian domination in the ladies field is entirely new and somewhat reminiscent of the American ladies of the 90s-early 00s.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
For Zagitova it's really 2 years with one OGM at the end. I really hope it will continue, but right now it's just 2 years.

Nevertheless, the question is very valid. What career is better? Short with a grand slam, or a long one with secondary prizes?
Are you really saying Sarah Hughes's career is more valuable than that of Carolina Costner or Michelle Kwan's? Or even Ashley Wagner's?

I really like what is happening in the Russian figure skating, as for me it's a return to their glorious USSR past. However, for the ladies it's getting a bit too extreme and I am finding myself really detached from all those meteoric Russian kids who disappear even faster than they appear.
That's the reason why I state that Evgenia's OGM would have been more beneficial for FS's image and interest than Alina's.

Imagine that Evgenia is going through a rapid body change, as she is way overdue with that now. In a normal country she would struggle internationally for a season or two, but then with a hard work she would have a chance for a comeback. In Russia she has no chance with all those countless Trusovas and Kostornaias, not mentioning Zagitovas. Once she is gone then she is gone.

Except, currently, you cannot be Ashley Wagner or Carolina Kostner in Russia, because there are tons of talented skaters, and more are coming.
So your options are: 1. Win whatever you can now and hope for the best 2. Wait for some whatever age perfect time long career, which you will not have because today's juniors will take your place tomorrow, and you are not getting GPs, Euros, Worlds or Olympics at all.

With all due respect, Wagner and Caro only managed to have long careers due to lack of strong domestic competition, as, for a long span of time, they were basically granted all the worlds euros/4cc and whatever spots simply because there were no better skaters around. Russian situation is different - every single spot is a bloodbath. And btw, most families cannot pay for elite training without elite results, and being on the team is a big deal financially.
 

Mawwerg

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
It's a very valid point! Other than being historical - how rewatchable is Trusova's performance? I watched it once and it's enough for me. I don't think I will ever come back to it. Yes, she had those quads, I acknowledge it, but other than that it's just a child's performance with very rushed components.

I doubt I will rewatch her free program except for the part with quads. But I have already rewatched about 30 times her JGPF short program. It makes me feel better.
 

TryMeLater

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
I am looking at the entire spectrum. The ladies is a part of the whole thing for me. Plus the results of the recent JWC, the number of their clubs, the amount of energy in the entire Russian FS. I think the ladies are just the symptom of the entire revival rather than a detached phenomenon.

A lot of this has to do with their funding.
Everything is free of charge.
The figure skating Olympic team got cars as gifts - Zagitova a BMW X5, Medvedeva a BMW X4 (I don't know about the other models - some got a BMW X3).
So the athletes are rewarded monetarily for their success - this is something which is missing in other countries.
 

tars

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Fans recall Yulia Lipnitskaia's triumphs, but how many remember her dejected, tearful face at her last competition, COR 2016, where she finished dead last. She continued to skate despite having injured herself, knowing that her career was over at 18.
Many. :sad21:
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Except, currently, you cannot be Ashley Wagner or Carolina Kostner in Russia, because there are tons of talented skaters, and more are coming.

That's my entire point! They cannot really go the regular growth path from a child to a full maturity. That's why the meteoric rise and fall before puberty might be the only option for them.
Some change to the entire system is necessary, in my opinion. I would go with increasing the limit of skaters per country in WC to five and have qualification rules independent on federations' decisions. Make skaters earn their WC participation. Plus, a change in the scoring system to promote a better balance between TES and PCS.
 

Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
I doubt I will rewatch her free program except for the part with quads. But I have already rewatched about 30 times her JGPF short program. It makes me feel better.
Of course, that program was sacrificed for the two quads. It was designed for only a single quad and because of that, the entire choreo is all messed up for the first half.

Still, the latter half with all the triples is to me a better watch than the actual quads, and I really like how the last bielmann goes with the music.

That's my entire point! They cannot really go the regular growth path from a child to a full maturity. That's why the meteoric rise and fall before puberty might be the only option for them.
Some change to the entire system is necessary, in my opinion. I would go with increasing the limit of skaters per country in WC to five and have qualification rules independent on federations' decisions. Make skaters earn their WC participation. Plus, a change in the scoring system to promote a better balance between TES and PCS.
That's quite exaggerated, I think. Medvedeva's doing just fine at 18 years of age, even though she only got a silver at the Olympics(So did Michelle). Sotskova's also doing alright and she's 18 years old soon, also.

However, I'm 1000% with you on increasing the amount of participants by country to 5 rather than 3. Currently winning Russian Moscow locals are something I consider a greater achievement than winning the world championships, which is, eh...
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
The figure skating Olympic team got cars as gifts - Zagitova a BMW X5, Medvedeva a BMW X4 (I don't know about the other models - some got a BMW X3).

So the athletes are rewarded monetarily for their success - this is something which is missing in other countries.

In the United States monetary rewards after the fact are possible, too. But you have to hustle for it. Michelle Kwan's net worth is $15-$20 million. Michael Phelps -- well, he can swim really fast. He's got $55 million. Miraai Nagasu and Adam Rippon might go on Dancing With The Stars and make a few hundred thousand, despite only so-so results in Pyeongchang. Ashley Wagner still has a lot of endorsement contracts despite not making the Olympic team.

It is not free to get statred, though. But you might get free boots from a skating boot manufacturer, like Karen Chen did.
 
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TryMeLater

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
In the United States monetary rewards after the fact are possible, too. But you have to hustle for it. Michelle Kwan's net worth is $15-$20 million. Michael Phelps -- well, he can swim really fast. He's got $55 million. Miraai Nagasu and Adam Rippon might go on Dancing With The Stars and make a few hundred thousand, despite only so-so results in Pyeongchang. Ashley Wagner still has a lot of enforcement contracts despite not making the Olympic team.

It is not free to get stared, though. But you might get free boots from a skating boot manufacturer, like Karen Chen did.

Yeah, but Kwan got her money mainly from endorsements (and not necessarily her achievements in the sport), and she still had to pay her coaches.
It's vastly different. When Alena Leonova won the silver, the Russian fed had rented her an apartment.
The USFS didn't pay for Wagner's rent when she won - and yes, that makes a difference.
Just listen to Adam Rippon talking about the struggle of financing.
 
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