Trusova and Quads | Page 18 | Golden Skate

Trusova and Quads

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Sotskova's also doing alright and she's 18 years old soon, also.

I don't think we will see Sotskova next season, despite she would be welcomed with all fanfares and on a red carpet in all other remaining countries.

Masha, please come to Poland under Marysia Sockowska name. You will be rewarded with Olympic and WC participation for the rest of your career... :)
 

cheerio2

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
I don't think the balance between TES and PCS should be adjusted. PCS is subjective and low quality technical performances win because of overblown PCS, and also I think results like that would cause the general public to tune out of this sport.
Carolina Kostner, I love the girl, but there were several times when PCS got her a podium spot when she only landed 2 or 3 clean triple
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
I don't think the balance between TES and PCS should be adjusted. PCS is subjective and low quality technical performances win because of overblown PCS, and also I think results like that would cause the general public to tune out of this sport.
Carolina Kostner, I love the girl, but there were several times when PCS got her a podium spot when she only landed 2 or 3 clean triple

I agree about Carolina, but that's another example of unbalanced TES/PCS, but going the other way.
 

tars

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Welcoming the winners in Moscow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFgPvBgfiVk

TAT about Trusova in the end of video:
"the little girl, Sasha Trusova, conquered the world, because she's fearless and professional jumping two quads in one skate, it's the level of 5-6th place of senior men at Worlds."
 

cheerio2

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
I agree about Carolina, but that's another example of unbalanced TES/PCS, but going the other way.

Sometimes I wish there were separate medals for PCS and TES, in addition to the overall medal. I know there are asons why we shouldn't do that, bug dammi
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Sometimes I wish there were separate medals for PCS and TES, in addition to the overall medal. I know there are asons why we shouldn't do that, bug dammi

Simple formula for rewarding balanced programs: TSS = PCS + TES, minus 30% of difference between PCS and TES.
Some way of penalizing too big differences. Just an idea...

Interesting observation: if I make an adjustment for the 30% difference between PCS and TES then Evgenia beats Alina in Pyeonchang. And Sakamoto beats Costner. In fact, Sakamoto's had the most balanced program among all the ladies. And contrary to what you said, rewarding balanced programs would be actually penalizing Carolina. Carolina had the most unbalanced program among the top skaters.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Simple formula for rewarding balanced programs: TSS = PCS + TES minus 30% of difference between PCS and TES.
Some way of penalizing too big differences. Just an idea...

This is kind of in the spirit of the realignment in the IJS generally. In 6.0, it was 50% tech, 50% performance. It was rare that there was a big difference, because the judges could just make it come out approximately even if they wanted to.

In the IJS, it is 50% tech (base values plus GOE), 30% presentation (choreography, interpretation and presentation), and 20% overall skating (SS and TR). When someone like Kostner gets higher PCS than TES, it is in part because she is a better ice skater (a technical category), not just because of being graceful and performing an emotionally and esthetically satisfying program.

Conversely, a big jumper who also has good skating skills and transitions won't be too far off, even if her artistry is immature.
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
This is kind of in the spirit of the realignment in the IJS generally. In 6.0, it was 50% tech, 50% performance. It was rare that there was a big difference, because the judges could just make it come out approximately even if they wanted to.

In the IJS, it is 50% tech (base values plus GOE), 30% presentation (choreography, interpretation and presentation), and 20% overall skating (SS and TR). When someone like Kostner gets higher PCS than TES, it is in part because she is a better ice skater (a technical category), not just because of being graceful and performing an emotionally and esthetically satisfying program.

Conversely, a big jumper who also has good skating skills and transitions won't be too far off, even if her artistry is immature.

It all comes down to TES (tangible) plus PCS (intangible). Something that can be measured by a meter vs. something that is in judges' heads as "presentation". And the point is to make them as much equal as possible. For Evgenia the difference was 1.71, while for Alina it was 6.59. Quite a big difference. And for Carolina it was 12.01! Nobody in the field was even close to Carolina in this matter of unbalanced programs.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
It all comes down to TES (tangible) plus PCS (intangible). Something that can be measured by a meter vs. something that is in judges' heads as "presentation".

It's tricky, though. The TES includes GOE which is largely "in the judges' heads." The PSCs includes things like speed and ice coverage which can be measured objectively.
 

Manitou

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
It's tricky, though. The TES includes GOE which is largely "in the judges' heads." The PSCs includes things like speed and ice coverage which can be measured objectively.

I think that for qualified judges GOE is almost automatic. Even many qualified spectators can make those numbers.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
For Zagitova it's really 2 years with one OGM at the end. I really hope it will continue, but right now it's just 2 years.

Nevertheless, the question is very valid. What career is better? Short with a grand slam, or a long one with secondary prizes?
Are you really saying Sarah Hughes's career is more valuable than that of Carolina Costner or Michelle Kwan's? Or even Ashley Wagner's?

I really like what is happening in the Russian figure skating, as for me it's a return to their glorious USSR past. However, for the ladies it's getting a bit too extreme and I am finding myself really detached from all those meteoric Russian kids who disappear even faster than they appear.
That's the reason why I state that Evgenia's OGM would have been more beneficial for FS's image and interest than Alina's.

Imagine that Evgenia is going through a rapid body change, as she is way overdue with that now. In a normal country she would struggle internationally for a season or two, but then with a hard work she would have a chance for a comeback. In Russia she has no chance with all those countless Trusovas and Kostornaias, not mentioning Zagitovas. Once she is gone then she is gone.

I'm not saying it's any less or more valuable but getting to the Olympics is something not many people do and winning an Olympic gold medal is even rarer. Skaters' priorities and motivations vary - they don't "owe" us extended careers or maintaining a high level over time when that is also a rarity. They should take opportunities when they can. It would be a question to ask Kwan if she would trade her last two or three years of amateur skating for a triple-triple and an Olympic gold in Nagano. If my career were 10 years long and I never won a gold medal I would totally give half of that for Olympic glory or adding my name to the history books.

And per your other post. Yes - I will and have watched Trusova's Free skate a half dozen times now. It's absolutely remarkable the technical ability. I'm not a fan of the way she skates around, and her spins need work, but the program is technically out of this world, jumps-wise. And I love the reactions at the end when the scores come up. :biggrin:
 

[email protected]

Medalist
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Yeah, but Kwan got her money mainly from endorsements (and not necessarily her achievements in the sport), and she still had to pay her coaches.
It's vastly different. When Alena Leonova won the silver, the Russian fed had rented her an apartment.
The USFS didn't pay for Wagner's rent when she won - and yes, that makes a difference.
Just listen to Adam Rippon talking about the struggle of financing.

Why should one care about who pays? Money does not smell as they say. It is no doubt that the net worth of Yuna Kim (and Michelle Kwan) is 10 times bigger than that of all Russian lady skaters combined Medvedeva included. There are just no endorsements of that size for figure skaters in Russia. And the sport is very expensive when you take not only costs but incomes in consideration.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
It would be a question to ask Kwan if she would trade her last two or three years of amateur skating for a triple-triple and an Olympic gold in Nagano. If my career were 10 years long and I never won a gold medal I would totally give half of that for Olympic glory or adding my name to the history books.

I suppose that she would. Then she would be in the history books as one of a long and ever-growing list of Olympic gold medalists, a new one every four years, rain or shine.

As it is, she is in the history books as one of only 4 ladies ever who won the world championship five times. She is is the history books for medaling at Worlds nine consecutive times. Selfishly on my part, I would not want her to give up her LP performance at 2003 Worlds. I would not want her to give up her LP performance at 2004 U.S. Nationals (a million views on You Tube, quite a few from me. ;) ).
 

russianfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 4, 2017
Interview with Daniil, mostly about Trusova

Main points:
1) Sasha has started trying quads about a year ago. At the beginning they were trying to increase her height on triples, then trying quads with a "fishing rod" and special pants to avoid injuries. Initially, she was attempting max 1-2 quads per training and then they were giving her a break for 3-4 days.
2) The main point is that it was Sasha who wanted to do quads, they were even limiting her in a sense. She was asking them to jump even more in trainings.
3) They're not going to teach quads if someone is afraid of doing them, it's too dangerous.
4) Seems like Sasha isn't much interested in spins/gliding/other skating stuff. Daniil says if you would say to Sasha "Do what you want" - she will jump for 5 hours straight.
5) Of course they're going to improve her other skills, they don't want disbalance in her skating.
6) Scherbakova will soon continue learning 4T. She has already restored all her other jumps.
7) They think Kostornaya also has a good chance of jumping quads/3A, Daniil says on the floor she jumps higher than any of their girls, may be even higher than boys too. Right after she went off the ice at JWC she said "We will learn quads when we come home".
 

Lester

Piper and Paul are made of magic dust and unicorns
Final Flight
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Interview with Daniil, mostly about Trusova

7) They think Kostornaya also has a good chance of jumping quads/3A, Daniil says on the floor she jumps higher than any of their girls, may be even higher than boys too. Right after she went off the ice at JWC she said "We will learn quads when we come home".

The Russian girls pushing the tech difficulty is very exciting, I just wish they would focus more on performing not like they are repeating some steps they learned by heart. Or if they did continue performing like that, that PCS and GOE wouldn't be thrown their way so eagerly, of which I have no hope anymore.

But from your post it seems clear that perhaps jumps are what interests Trusova and perhaps all the girls in that camp are eager to outdo each other on the tech content, which is understandable.
 
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