Trusova and Quads | Page 24 | Golden Skate

Trusova and Quads

Amei

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
Honestly? I would prefer this if everyone gets called evenly. Makes not just wins but accomplishments and skills much more meaningful. It won't happen.

XYZ people will argue such harsh scoring will cause skaters to backpedal and slow the quad/TES revolution. XYZ people just don't want it for whatever reason (like it'll take away the entertaining factor for whatever reason). XYZ people are against harsh scoring in general because it won't be implemented across the board for all skaters. (In the present, how many times already during a skate have we seen an obviously questionable jump be marked for review, we see the slow motion on our own screen after, and it not get called for what it was? For flutz, lips, URs, too much PR, etc.) [Insert your reason here.]

If everyone would get called evenly then I would be in favor of it, but given the ISU history I don't have faith that would happen.

My concern that would be against a slow-motion analysis done of take-offs is how much time would it add to pull a slow-motion and review the jumps of skaters?
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
That would be the worst possible thing ever. The fans would tune out so quick if the ISU overfocused on such things. They are already walking a thin line that is starting to turn people off over Tech Panels being ridiculous about rotations. Let those always grumpy internet people deal with it on their blogs.

Lol, agreed. I mean if they want to invest considerable time scrutinizing pre-rotation or take offs frame by frame and making hours of inconsequential YouTube videos throwing shade at them, they're entitled to do so, but the ISU isn't going to pander to them.

Panels scrutinizing takeoffs and landings to that extent would take forever and make the sport pretty much unwatchable for spectators.

You'd get less than 5 minutes of skating and more than 5 minutes of panel scrutineering - and people would still complain that their faves weren't given high enough scores and the rivals of their faves didn't have their scores lowered enough.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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My concern that would be against a slow-motion analysis done of take-offs is how much time would it add to pull a slow-motion and review the jumps of skaters?

It’s already taking too much time IMO to get these scores out. If it isn’t noticable in real time then I’m not so sure I care. I can tolerate some delay in the scoring but I’m starting to really dislike the nitpicky calls I’m seeing. Sasha’s quads are amazing and deserve to score more than anyone else’s triples. I’m not even a little unsure about that.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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Lol, agreed. I mean if they want to invest considerable time scrutinizing pre-rotation or take offs frame by frame and making hours of inconsequential YouTube videos throwing shade at them, they're entitled to do so, but the ISU isn't going to pander to them.

Panels scrutinizing takeoffs and landings to that extent would take forever and make the sport pretty much unwatchable for spectators.

You'd get less than 5 minutes of skating and more than 5 minutes of panel scrutineering - and people would still complain that their faves weren't given high enough scores and the rivals of their faves didn't have their scores lowered enough.

“Scrutineering” makes me :dbana:
 

neusw

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
This is off topic, but has Sasha ever fallen on a triple in international competition? I do not recall a time she did over two seasons. That's an accomplishment. Perhaps triples are to her are becoming what doubles are to all other female skaters.

I don’t think she fell all last season except on the combo in the SP at a domestic competition. She certainly had a few odd landings on triples last year, but they’re super solid this year. I think triples for her are like they are for men who can do multiple quads—triples become just an afterthought that can be thrown in at the end of the program and landed without much effort.
 

tofuetoffee

Rinkside
Joined
Jun 12, 2017
Lol, agreed. I mean if they want to invest considerable time scrutinizing pre-rotation or take offs frame by frame and making hours of inconsequential YouTube videos throwing shade at them, they're entitled to do so, but the ISU isn't going to pander to them.

Panels scrutinizing takeoffs and landings to that extent would take forever and make the sport pretty much unwatchable for spectators.

You'd get less than 5 minutes of skating and more than 5 minutes of panel scrutineering - and people would still complain that their faves weren't given high enough scores and the rivals of their faves didn't have their scores lowered enough.

It’s already taking too much time IMO to get these scores out. If it isn’t noticable in real time then I’m not so sure I care. I can tolerate some delay in the scoring but I’m starting to really dislike the nitpicky calls I’m seeing. Sasha’s quads are amazing and deserve to score more than anyone else’s triples. I’m not even a little unsure about that.

Question: if some miracle happens and technological advances makes it possible through some combination of the blade, arena, and computer (take your pick) to do the scrutinizing faster and easier, and everyone being graded the same through the same system, would you still be for harsher calls or no? Not saying it's possible even in the future, but just in a what-if scenario.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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Question: if some miracle happens and technological advances makes it possible through some combination of the blade, arena, and computer (take your pick) to do the scrutinizing faster and easier, and everyone being graded the same through the same system, would you still be for harsher calls or no? Not saying it's possible even in the future, but just in a what-if scenario.

Only if you lowered the points deducted. I think they are too severe. YMMV

And....I think you’d have to set the threshold of acceptance noticeably below that of Sasha’s jumps.
 

narcissa

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
Only if you lowered the points deducted. I think they are too severe. YMMV

And....I think you’d have to set the threshold of acceptance noticeably below that of Sasha’s jumps.

People who are upset about technical panels being selectively lenient because oftentimes it is unfair (skaters from certain federations get passes and others do not) make a very valid point, IMO. Whether you think panels should be more lenient or more strict, I would hope that at the very least you would like to see that standard applied consistently to all skaters.
 

NymphyNymphy

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 26, 2017
Lol, agreed. I mean if they want to invest considerable time scrutinizing pre-rotation or take offs frame by frame and making hours of inconsequential YouTube videos throwing shade at them, they're entitled to do so, but the ISU isn't going to pander to them.

Panels scrutinizing takeoffs and landings to that extent would take forever and make the sport pretty much unwatchable for spectators.

You'd get less than 5 minutes of skating and more than 5 minutes of panel scrutineering - and people would still complain that their faves weren't given high enough scores and the rivals of their faves didn't have their scores lowered enough.

I agree that it would be a little too much but would it really take that much longer? With today's technology, slow motion replay can fed directly to the tech panel milliseconds after the skater lands. Tech can simply scrub through the entry. These types of slow-motion programs are easily developed even back in the early 2000's. Takes maybe 5 extra seconds in total for the user to select a speed and scrub to the entry to determine whether PR was excessive. Mark the element and have the judges score GOE accordingly.
I come from a computer science background so I always wonder if ISU's "technology limitations" are a result of lack of funding. The act of obtaining slow-motion footage and scrubbing through it is not a hard task. Especially with today's technology.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Question: if some miracle happens and technological advances makes it possible through some combination of the blade, arena, and computer (take your pick) to do the scrutinizing faster and easier, and everyone being graded the same through the same system, would you still be for harsher calls or no? Not saying it's possible even in the future, but just in a what-if scenario.

not in our lifetime.
keep in mind that we are talking about people who think that flash drives are too complicated.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
I agree that it would be a little too much but would it really take that much longer? With today's technology, slow motion replay can fed directly to the tech panel milliseconds after the skater lands. Tech can simply scrub through the entry. These types of slow-motion programs are easily developed even back in the early 2000's. Takes maybe 5 extra seconds in total for the user to select a speed and scrub to the entry to determine whether PR was excessive. Mark the element and have the judges score GOE accordingly.
I come from a computer science background so I always wonder if ISU's "technology limitations" are a result of lack of funding. The act of obtaining slow-motion footage and scrubbing through it is not a hard task. Especially with today's technology.

Watch videos from the ISU congress that happened earlier this year.
It is very insightful about the ISU vs Technology thing. The issue is not the lack of funding, the issue are the 80 year old dudes who probably don't know how to use the TV remote doing the decision making.
 

NymphyNymphy

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 26, 2017
not in our lifetime.
keep in mind that we are talking about people who think that flash drives are too complicated.

Actually, these types of technologies are already available. Its a matter of whether ISU has the funding for it.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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People who are upset about technical panels being selectively lenient because oftentimes it is unfair (skaters from certain federations get passes and others do not) make a very valid point, IMO. Whether you think panels should be more lenient or more strict, I would hope that at the very least you would like to see that standard applied consistently to all skaters.

I’ve lost almost complete interest on this topic. The fact that Sasha’s jumps get picked at just shows me how off the rails the conversation on this stuff is going. She’s well within what should be eligible by any definition for full BV when she hits. Just speaking in general her jumps are excellent and far above average comparative to skaters of every level of ISU skating.

To answer your question...I of course would appreciate more consistency. At least among the Tech Panel. It’s actually more fun when the judges are all over the place ;)
 

tofuetoffee

Rinkside
Joined
Jun 12, 2017
A consideration that was also brought up during the congress (because of the idea to split panels for judges to score PCS and another for GOEs):
what about the smaller competitions?

In that case, still have human judges but with the assistance of better computers and technology for competitions should suffice.

Therefore without eradicating judges altogether, the smaller competitions without the budget could just do with human judges while the huge competitions like Worlds and GPF would do with human judges and computer tech assistance.

Until it becomes standard one day, that is. I mean it has to start somewhere. (Bringing an example from a different sport, I think this was how FIFA was planning to do it with goal line technology as not a replacement but to assist officials, and used only at high level competitions or by big leagues. Get that foot at the door! Of course, there was still bias though about what to review or not.)
 

NymphyNymphy

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 26, 2017
I’ve lost almost complete interest on this topic. The fact that Sasha’s jumps get picked at just shows me how off the rails the conversation on this stuff is going. She’s well within what should be eligible by any definition for full BV when she hits. Just speaking in general her jumps are excellent and far above average comparative to skaters of every level of ISU skating.

Yes Trusova is in a league of her own. She might not have technique like Elizaveta but every other lady uses PR and still struggle with triples. Trusova is capable of quads and that puts her in a different league.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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Yes Trusova is in a league of her own. She might not have technique like Elizaveta but every other lady uses PR and still struggle with triples. Trusova is capable of quads and that puts her in a different league.

With the increased consequence on GOE (both positive and negative) I’m surprised we haven’t seen far more lenient tech panels and harsher judges. That seems like the ideal solution to me. I’m not digging these harsher UR calls. I’d rather that be left to the naked eye via the judges table.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Question: if some miracle happens and technological advances makes it possible through some combination of the blade, arena, and computer (take your pick) to do the scrutinizing faster and easier, and everyone being graded the same through the same system, would you still be for harsher calls or no? Not saying it's possible even in the future, but just in a what-if scenario.

Oh for sure! But I think you would then see a horde of deductions (especially rotation/pre-rotation in the ladies event) and protocols will look like a mess. I agree that better technique should be rewarded but figure skating has always given some leeway. It's why landings can be within a quarter rotation instead of everyone having to land their jumps like Gracie Gold. It's why jumps on takeoff allow some degree of pre-rotation (as long as it's not egregious). It's why landings are scrutinized more than takeoff and why we don't measure the angle of axis a skater has in the air to see if they need a deduction for leaning, it's why we don't get a protractor out to see if camel spins are above 90 degrees or a computer to count spin rotations for the judges, or get a computer to assess the turns of an ice Dance blade to make sure the right edges are being executed. Some things have to be left to human assessment but that obviously means human error is possible. I can picture technology helping more in the future and welcome that but there is a balance.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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Oh for sure! But I think you would then see a horde of deductions (especially rotation/pre-rotation in the ladies event) and protocols will look like a mess. I agree that better technique should be rewarded but figure skating has always given some leeway. It's why landings can be within a quarter rotation instead of everyone having to land their jumps like Gracie Gold. It's why jumps on takeoff allow some degree of pre-rotation (as long as it's not egregious). It's why landings are scrutinized more than takeoff and why we don't measure the angle of axis a skater has in the air to see if they need a deduction for leaning, it's why we don't get a protractor out to see if camel spins are above 90 degrees or a computer to count spin rotations for the judges, or get a computer to assess the turns of an ice Dance blade to make sure the right edges are being executed. Some things have to be left to human assessment but that obviously means human error is possible. I can picture technology helping more in the future and welcome that but there is a balance.

Totally agree with everything. How a jump looks and “wears” on a program can’t be factored by a computer chip. The way a skater uses an entrance or times their approach to give the pass feeling is a big part of the equation. If PreRotation or UR affect the appearance and mechanics of a jump the judges should see it. This new GOE scale just needs to be utilized and implemented properly. I hope they keep these webinars going for the judges and use examples of poor and good judging each season.

What could be beneficial for fans and overall confidence in ISU judging is to open up their webpage to interaction with fans who suggest/nominate specific jumps for judges to review in their summer webinar. Top 4 or 5 going up for discussion by ISU professionals and made available to public viewing would be interesting and help calm the fans who have a hard time seeing why some jumps are scored as they are.

Very good point you made about balance. I can’t agree more!
 

Yuzuruu

the silent assassin
Medalist
Joined
Nov 21, 2017
It makes one wonder why we need men's figure skating at all. ;)

For one - because it's nice to see flawless technique on the quad lutz ;) :coffee: there's no comparison between Boyang's, Nathan's and Yuzu's quad lutz and Sasha's and Anna's, they are not equal. It's admirable the girls are trying them of course, it pushes the ladies field finally. The men's field has taken a giant step forward in the last few years so I expected the ladies to catch up soon and hopefully this is a sign that Sasha and Anna lead the way of a revolution :)
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
What could be beneficial for fans and overall confidence in ISU judging is to open up their webpage to interaction with fans who suggest jumps that judges review. Top 4 or 5 going up for discussion and made available to public viewing would be interesting and help calm the fans who have a hard time seeing why some jumps are scored as they are.
LOL. Best of luck to everyone involved in this.
 
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