Trusova and Quads

Sam-Skwantch · Oct 15, 2018

chopinskate said:
LOL. Best of luck to everyone involved in this.

I meant that fans could nominate a few jumps to be a part of an ISU Judging Webinar like the ones we saw appear over the summer. Hopefully they continue with those and adding a few nominated jumps to the already planned examples could really benefit the sport. Not only for the fans but to keep judges on a similar page too. You’d think they’d want to counter some of the misinformation some internet experts are putting out there. This ongoing topic/discussion could use a verified source that illistrates the proper balance assessing the pros and cons in the scoring of jumps and how judges should get there.

Arbitrary · Oct 15, 2018

Seems like Trusova and Shcherbakova are not the most technically advanced female skaters anymore.

With solid 3A-3T, good potential for 4Lz and - the most important - spare year and half, the American Alisya Liu is the number one now.
She learned and solidified 3A in two months only.

I'm in doubt the "two great ladies" may learn and stabilize 3A quickly enough if ever.

moriel · Oct 15, 2018

Arbitrary said:
Seems like Trusova and Shcherbakova are not the most technically advanced female skaters anymore.

With solid 3A-3T, good potential for 4Lz and - the most important - spare year and half, the American Alisya Liu is the number one now.
She learned and solidified 3A in two months only.

I'm in doubt the "two great ladies" may learn and stabilize 3A quickly enough if ever.

Once she lands those at an international competition we talk.
So far, Trusova has the following jumps ratified: 4T, 4S, 4Lz, 4T+3T. I don't see how a girl that has yet to land her first quad can be called the most technically advanced female skater.

oatmella · Oct 15, 2018

While I love Nathan’s quad lutz, I respect those from Sasha and Anna as well. And really exciting that Alysa is going for one too.

Don’t see the need to compare mens to ladies.

Sam-Skwantch · Oct 15, 2018

moriel said:
So far, Trusova has the following jumps ratified: 4T, 4S, 4Lz, 4T+3T.

ZOMG...looking at the list of jumps Tiny Boss has achieved got me all like....

Wonder what she’ll do next :hap85:

Jammers · Oct 15, 2018

moriel said:
Once she lands those at an international competition we talk.
So far, Trusova has the following jumps ratified: 4T, 4S, 4Lz, 4T+3T. I don't see how a girl that has yet to land her first quad can be called the most technically advanced female skater.

If Trusova is still landing those jumps by 2020-21 i'll say she's the real deal. The good thing is she will have to go through her growth spurts and prove herself before the 2022 Olympics so we won't have yet another 15 year old who hasn't grown yet winning another Olympics before they lose their jumps. Unless there is a 12 year who's unknown at the moment just like Zagitova was an unknown before the 2016 JGP which is entirely possible the way Russia is churning out these girls.

Shayuki · Oct 15, 2018

Jammers said:
If Trusova is still landing those jumps by 2020-21 i'll say she's the real deal. The good thing is she will have to go through her growth spurts and prove herself before the 2022 Olympics so we won't have yet another 15 year old who hasn't grown yet winning another Olympics before they lose their jumps. Unless there is a 12 year who's unknown at the moment just like Zagitova was an unknown before the 2016 JGP which is entirely possible the way Russia is churning out these girls.

Meh, she's the real deal regardless. I think it's a very random requirement for a skater to have to keep their quads for 3 years until they're considered "a real deal", whatever that means.

There are plenty of well-known 12-year-olds, why do they have to be unknown? That's puzzling.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 15, 2018

Jammers said:
If Trusova is still landing those jumps by 2020-21 i'll say she's the real deal. The good thing is she will have to go through her growth spurts and prove herself before the 2022 Olympics so we won't have yet another 15 year old who hasn't grown yet winning another Olympics before they lose their jumps. Unless there is a 12 year who's unknown at the moment just like Zagitova was an unknown before the 2016 JGP which is entirely possible the way Russia is churning out these girls.

I think Trusova is the real deal now, and even if her jumps don't hold up over the next quadrennial and prior to the Olympics, that (for me) doesn't take away from what she has accomplished and the fact that she is the best jumper the ladies side has ever seen. Other ladies skaters have stronger triples than she does, and she hasn't done the 3A yet, but having landed 3 different quads and railing off 3 triple-triple combos in one program totally puts her at the very top IMO.

Atlantis · Oct 15, 2018

Yuzuruu said:
For one - because it's nice to see flawless technique on the quad lutz there's no comparison between Boyang's, Nathan's and Yuzu's quad lutz and Sasha's and Anna's, they are not equal. It's admirable the girls are trying them of course, it pushes the ladies field finally. The men's field has taken a giant step forward in the last few years so I expected the ladies to catch up soon and hopefully this is a sign that Sasha and Anna lead the way of a revolution

Well, according to the judges they are equal, so I don't think any comparison is invalid as long as these quads get the same scores and the same recognition. But it's not mens quads vs ladies quads. It's about correct technique that makes one's jumps look very impressive and the one that is based on excessive PR and speed of rotation and that makes quads look way less impressive than they are supposed to be. And ladies are not the only ones using this technique.

DaNiCG · Oct 15, 2018

judges cant even separate a flip and a lutz :shrug:

Atlantis · Oct 15, 2018

DaNiCG said:
judges cant even separate a flip and a lutz

That is only one specific judge that should probably leave FS alone forever :curse:

neusw · Oct 15, 2018

Arbitrary said:
Seems like Trusova and Shcherbakova are not the most technically advanced female skaters anymore.

With solid 3A-3T, good potential for 4Lz and - the most important - spare year and half, the American Alisya Liu is the number one now.
She learned and solidified 3A in two months only.

I'm in doubt the "two great ladies" may learn and stabilize 3A quickly enough if ever.

...OK, let's see if she manages to jump any of those without < or << or falls once she gets even slightly bigger in any way. She is absolutely tiny, gets so little height on her jumps it's not even funny. If you think Anna has small jumps, holy hell even Alysa's triples are 1000% dependent on rotation speed right now. Of all young skaters trying difficult elements, I have the least faith in her keeping them. Her jumps are so tiny I expect her to be more likely to under-rotate her regular triples after puberty than to keep any of her 3A or quad elements.

And in what world is being able to jump a 3A more "technically advanced" than being able to jump multiple quads. Let's do the math: Quads are worth more points than 3A. If you want to brag about Alysa "solidifying" her 3A in 2 months, then let's also talk about Trusova learning a 4T in about 3 days.

Elucidus · Oct 15, 2018

https://isu.org/inside-single-pair-...rand-prix-final-in-vancouver?templateParam=15

On her way to her second Junior Grand Prix gold medal this season, Russia’s Alexandra Trusova became the first female skater to land a quadruple Lutz in international competition. The quad Lutz, performed in her Free Skating to “The Fifth Element”, was somewhat shaky, but fully rotated.

At last it's official! :clap:

Also, speaking about Liu - here is her last competition protocol http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2019/27735/SEGM017.html
Could someone please share link here to her performance since I wasn't able to find it in youtube. Which is really STRANGE and SUSPICIOUS if you think about it. I mean any attempts of such high-difficulty jumps by ladies are historical achievement of sorts and should gather thousands of views even as we speak here. And still.. there is nothing 0_0 Are the americans that uninterested in promoting their future star?

neusw · Oct 15, 2018

Elucidus said:
https://isu.org/inside-single-pair-...rand-prix-final-in-vancouver?templateParam=15

At last it's official!

Also, speaking about Liu - here is her last competition protocol http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2019/27735/SEGM017.html
Could someone please share link here to her performance since I wasn't able to find it in youtube. Which is really STRANGE and SUSPICIOUS if you think about it. I mean any attempts of such high-difficulty jumps by ladies are historical achievement of sorts and should gather thousands of views even as we speak here. And still.. there is nothing 0_0 Are the americans that uninterested in promoting their future star?

There’s a couple videos floating around on Instagram of a landed < attempt in practice and a fall in the routine. Both clips are from very poor angles so you can’t judge much of anything from them.

jenaj · Oct 15, 2018

neusw said:
...OK, let's see if she manages to jump any of those without < or << or falls once she gets even slightly bigger in any way. She is absolutely tiny, gets so little height on her jumps it's not even funny. If you think Anna has small jumps, holy hell even Alysa's triples are 1000% dependent on rotation speed right now. Of all young skaters trying difficult elements, I have the least faith in her keeping them. Her jumps are so tiny I expect her to be more likely to under-rotate her regular triples after puberty than to keep any of her 3A or quad elements.

And in what world is being able to jump a 3A more "technically advanced" than being able to jump multiple quads. Let's do the math: Quads are worth more points than 3A. If you want to brag about Alysa "solidifying" her 3A in 2 months, then let's also talk about Trusova learning a 4T in about 3 days.

The points value doesn't necessarily reflect how technically advanced a jump is. The fact that a quad can be learned in three days by a skater who cannot do a 3A suggests the 3A is harder. Even some men who can jump multiple quads can have trouble with the 3A--Nathan Chen for example. Personally, I think the 3A is way under-valued in the IJS, at least for the ladies. The fact that so few ladies skaters have mastered the 3A over so many years--and that those have gotten it, have rarely done it consistently--testifies to its technical difficulty.

Sam-Skwantch · Oct 15, 2018

jenaj said:
The points value doesn't necessarily reflect how technically advanced a jump is. The fact that a quad can be learned in three days by a skater who cannot do a 3A suggests the 3A is harder. Even some men who can jump multiple quads can have trouble with the 3A--Nathan Chen for example. Personally, I think the 3A is way under-valued in the IJS, at least for the ladies. The fact that so few ladies skaters have mastered the 3A over so many years--and that those have gotten it, have rarely done it consistently--testifies to its technical difficulty.

So what about the men who struggle with quads and can execute 3a’s? What about all the women who have landed a 3a and never a quad? I think these comparisons really are meaningless. People have different strengths.

I think the 3a offers advantages that the quad doesn’t and vice versa. Trusova’s quads impress me in the same spirit as does Rika’s 3a and 3a-3t

neusw · Oct 15, 2018

jenaj said:
The points value doesn't necessarily reflect how technically advanced a jump is. The fact that a quad can be learned in three days by a skater who cannot do a 3A suggests the 3A is harder. Even some men who can jump multiple quads can have trouble with the 3A--Nathan Chen for example. Personally, I think the 3A is way under-valued in the IJS, at least for the ladies. The fact that so few ladies skaters have mastered the 3A over so many years--and that those have gotten it, have rarely done it consistently--testifies to its technical difficulty.

And there are plenty of skaters who can learn a 3A faster than any quads. See: every woman who’s learned a 3A and most men who can’t do quads. Your argument that a 3A is harder because there’s a couple notable examples of people who are better at quads than 3A is ridiculous. If Nathan or Sasha had put as much effort and energy into learning the 3A as they spent on multiple quads, I guarantee you they’d be much better at the 3A. They prioritized bigger point getters, and rightfully so.

Elucidus · Oct 15, 2018

What I 've just found of Liu's quads:
https://outdatedlink.org/figs/src/1539571916304-0.mp4 from competition
https://outdatedlink.org/figs/src/1539572063253-0.mp4 warm-up

It seems both are UR - but they are much better then I thought they would be. Congratulations to Liu - it's nice to know that there will be decent rivals for Trusova not only in Russia :clap:

P.S.: here is somewhat better angle https://outdatedlink.org/figs/src/1539612159517-0.mp4 (it's on the brink of downgrade actually)

colormyworld240 · Oct 15, 2018

Jammers said:
If Trusova is still landing those jumps by 2020-21 i'll say she's the real deal. The good thing is she will have to go through her growth spurts and prove herself before the 2022 Olympics so we won't have yet another 15 year old who hasn't grown yet winning another Olympics before they lose their jumps. Unless there is a 12 year who's unknown at the moment just like Zagitova was an unknown before the 2016 JGP which is entirely possible the way Russia is churning out these girls.

Pretty sure she's the real deal now because no current senior lady has been able to land the quads she has when they were 14. And no current junior in international competition. You can talk about puberty all you want, but the fact is she's the first and only to have these achievements. No one else has done it pre- or post-puberty.

moriel · Oct 16, 2018

I kinda dont care about domestic competition and training videos.
Once a skater does it with at most < or rotated but fall internationally, then we talk about the potential.

Tired of all the obscure tries that never translate into actual performances.

Trusova and Quads

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