Trusova and Quads | Page 29 | Golden Skate

Trusova and Quads

Alex65

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Country
Russia
Refresh your memory, please just re-read the first pages of this topic. Remember what happened less than a year ago. And compare with today. I watch Sasha with admiration. She grows up, along with her growing her technical skills and artistic too. Her every performance is a surprise. . She continues to move forward, along with Anna, along with Rika. I am sure that soon there will be other young and courageous ones. And this is what I want to see on the ice. Because it is a sport.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
Unfortunately it is a sport and jumps and technical content have to count to pick placements. The ISU really needs to come up with a pro-circult to allow artistic and older skaters to maintain and grow the fan base.

Yet...we know it would likely struggle to garner attention. If the general public craves long drawn out gliding and programs based on choreographic staples wouldn’t the ratings for Ice Dance and Pairs be thru the roof.

There is a revolution in women’s sports right now and it reaches way beyond figure skating. I know several professional level female athletes and the the drive inside of them is the drive the keeps these sports ticking. They want to be the best athlete...not the best “female” athlete. People can try and quell these efforts and say it somehow ruins the sport (not their enjoyment) but the resolve of these athletes will always be the driving force behind progress.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
OK, I said I would leave, but I'm back in:

More jumps does NOT equal progress.

More revolutions in jumps for girls does NOT equal "girl power".

Those are presumptions, and arguments, but not facts. One can make that argument, and believe that argument, but it should be recognized as that. An opinion and an argument and not a fact. :)

OK, now I really am out of here.:laugh:
 

colormyworld240

Medalist
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
I was reading an article the other day on the continuing gymnastics debacle and someone made the comment that they wanted to see the gymnastics federation be able to make gymnastics safe for its participants. They weren't just talking about the sex issues, but the training methods, etc. It struck me that the ship as sailed on that, gymnastics is NOT particularly safe for gymnasts when practiced on the top levels - it requires too much unnatural stuff done to young (particularly in the case of the women) bodies to make it to the top. I then thought about how skating is behind gymnastics in this respect, but it is coming on strong. I believe that women having to do quads and 3As just to have any chance of success will not be a healthy development for the sport or its participants.

And who's to decide what the technical limit is based on safety? How do we know doubles and triples weren't already at this limit, or even singles. There are many skaters who have developed injuries over time from doing triples like Tara. I'm unfamiliar with the biomechanics of jumps but as far as I know this limit hasn't really been studied. Is it not possible for ladies to train 3As and quads safely? It would be a valid argument if there were actual data on this, but it seems the outrage comes from a few fans who dislike the direction the sport is going in (not even that, really - just the jumps from a few girls who like to jump). As with anything in sport, there is a risk and it's about training as safely as possible as the only way to avoid sports-related injury would just be not to participate at all. As a matter of fact, sports injuries are quite common and probably sports as a whole is quite unsafe.

Regarding Jason Brown, I don't think he's demotivated at all. On the contrary, he just made a huge coaching change and is trying to learn a quad. That doesn't seem like someone who is unmotivated. It's not so much that he isn't landing them yet - everyone develops at a different pace. He hasn't quit, is not quitting because others are more technically advanced than he is. That's passion for the sport, and his ambition and diligence should be an example to everyone.
 

colormyworld240

Medalist
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
OK, I said I would leave, but I'm back in:

More jumps does NOT equal progress.

More revolutions in jumps for girls does NOT equal "girl power".

Those are presumptions, and arguments, but not facts. One can make that argument, and believe that argument, but it should be recognized as that. An opinion and an argument and not a fact. :)

OK, now I really am out of here.:laugh:

Way to discount what these skaters have done. I'm pretty sure the first time a girl gets their singles, doubles, or triple is progress. I would imagine the same happens when they get a quad. And the same when they can achieve level 4 steps for the first time or do a new spin. And I'm pretty sure anything that is done for the first time in the ladies discipline is girl power. When Bonaly did her backflip, and was a very girl power moment. Same thing when Anna and Sasha did their quads, and Rika did her 3A-3T. Where is the official definition of progress and girl power in the figure skating dictionary?
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
OK, I said I would leave, but I'm back in:

More jumps does NOT equal progress.

More revolutions in jumps for girls does NOT equal "girl power".

Those are presumptions, and arguments, but not facts. One can make that argument, and believe that argument, but it should be recognized as that. An opinion and an argument and not a fact. :)

OK, now I really am out of here.:laugh:

For skaters looking to score points and win in an athletic event bigger jumps and higher scores are certainly a fair measure of progress. As much as anything else.
 

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
Way to discount what these skaters have done. I'm pretty sure the first time a girl gets their singles, doubles, or triple is progress. I would imagine the same happens when they get a quad. And the same when they can achieve level 4 steps for the first time or do a new spin. And I'm pretty sure anything that is done for the first time in the ladies discipline is girl power. When Bonaly did her backflip, and was a very girl power moment. Same thing when Anna and Sasha did their quads, and Rika did her 3A-3T. Where is the official definition of progress and girl power in the figure skating dictionary?

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to refine my post.

I should have said that it is not the *only* sign of progress. I should have said that those of us who are not impressed by jumps qua jumps do not believe we are standing in the way of progress and that is an opinion, just as the opinion that more revolutions in a jump is progress.

Those of us who are not impressed by more revolutions in a jump do not believe it is the *only* definition of girl power. As a (female) someone who has worked for women's rights most of my life (including as a girl:biggrin:) I get a little fidgety when I feel like those opinions are presented as facts. I don't mean to present my opinions as facts either.

We're all just opining:biggrin:

So I lied about leaving. But really, I only came in to point out that Jason Brown was not the only "artistic" men's skater, and here I am:laugh: I need to go find a junior men's thread (the junior discipline I really follow) so I can :sad21: over Andrew T.'s withdrawal....
 
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macy

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
i think some people are misinterpreting my original post...

i do not want to discredit quads, triple axels, or any jump for that matter. i am totally a-ok if Trusova wants to do a 4Lz, or if Yuzu wants to go for a 4A. i'm not against the technical progress of skating at all, nor am i favoring Jason Brown or any skater. my point was more focused on the skaters who have great artistry and pure great skating as a strength, regardless if they can do the hard jumps, because the current system mostly rewards those who are good technicians. why can't it reward the other half of what skating is too? if someone has the best artistry/skating skills/interpretation and the hardest jumps, more power to them, i just want to see them be rewarded equally. i would like to see the system more equal as to the value of PCS vs technical skills, that's all.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
i think some people are misinterpreting my original post...

i do not want to discredit quads, triple axels, or any jump for that matter. i am totally a-ok if Trusova wants to do a 4Lz, or if Yuzu wants to go for a 4A. i'm not against the technical progress of skating at all, nor am i favoring Jason Brown or any skater. my point was more focused on the skaters who have great artistry and pure great skating as a strength, regardless if they can do the hard jumps, because the current system mostly rewards those who are good technicians. why can't it reward the other half of what skating is too? if someone has the best artistry/skating skills/interpretation and the hardest jumps, more power to them, i just want to see them be rewarded equally. i would like to see the system more equal as to the value of PCS vs technical skills, that's all.

I get what you’re saying but it’s not as if Sasha is banging out huge PCS. She averages somewhere around 7.75 and lower over the past few seasons. That is plenty of room for someone to come along who can do quads and have a stronger presentation into the 9’s and get rewarded plenty. For skaters without a quad but a clean program who can get into the 9’s they pick up a good amount of points and if Sasha falls and gets huge -GOE those PCS points can make a huge difference.

I don’t usually go far into the rabbit hole of assigning PCS values that skaters deserve but I think Sasha earns those marks and I think the risk she takes with the quads make the scores she gets perfectly within reason. Just my opinion.
 

neusw

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
i think some people are misinterpreting my original post...

i do not want to discredit quads, triple axels, or any jump for that matter. i am totally a-ok if Trusova wants to do a 4Lz, or if Yuzu wants to go for a 4A. i'm not against the technical progress of skating at all, nor am i favoring Jason Brown or any skater. my point was more focused on the skaters who have great artistry and pure great skating as a strength, regardless if they can do the hard jumps, because the current system mostly rewards those who are good technicians. why can't it reward the other half of what skating is too? if someone has the best artistry/skating skills/interpretation and the hardest jumps, more power to them, i just want to see them be rewarded equally. i would like to see the system more equal as to the value of PCS vs technical skills, that's all.

At the end of the day, it’s a sport, and sport will always ultimately favor technical skill, even if the original intention with the design of the scoring system was to value both equally. Regardless of which “artistic” sport you consider, the way to get ahead has always been to pack the highest technical content, while still maintaining an adequate level of artistry. Technical skill can be precisely judged based on rules and requirements. Artistry is more nebulous and dependent on the eye of the beholder. There are very few examples in artistic sports where the artist was rewarded over the vastly technically superior athlete, and in my opinion that is absolutely correct if you want to be taken seriously as a sport. Otherwise figure skating would be considered as something like dance or theater—physically challenging, creative, and beautiful, but not sports.
 

surimi

Onward and forward, Sota!
Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
i think some people are misinterpreting my original post...

i do not want to discredit quads, triple axels, or any jump for that matter. i am totally a-ok if Trusova wants to do a 4Lz, or if Yuzu wants to go for a 4A. i'm not against the technical progress of skating at all, nor am i favoring Jason Brown or any skater. my point was more focused on the skaters who have great artistry and pure great skating as a strength, regardless if they can do the hard jumps, because the current system mostly rewards those who are good technicians. why can't it reward the other half of what skating is too? if someone has the best artistry/skating skills/interpretation and the hardest jumps, more power to them, i just want to see them be rewarded equally. i would like to see the system more equal as to the value of PCS vs technical skills, that's all.

I get what you're saying, but unless we're talking about the emergence of artistic competitions, that would be opening a whole new can of worms IMO, because people widely recognize that PCS are super subjective. I'm not too happy about jumping being the key either, mostly because it leads to injuries and early ends of seasons (or worse, careers), and the jump preparations detract from the performance for me. But IMO it is impossible to judge artistry fairly. Just look at how people clash over pre-and underrotations, something that should be much easier to measure objectively than PCS. One says it's black, one says it's white. :confused2:
The new system that punishes mistakes is a step in the right direction in my eyes: jumping risk is rewarded, but only as long as it's successful. That sounds fair to me, and gives clean but quadless skaters a chance to end up higher in the result list.
Now I'm out of here because I have nothing else to say about Trusova and her quads than 'spectacular achievement but I'll wait till she enters seniors'. Kihira's transition seems to be successful, let's see if the same happens with the girl quadsters.
 

doublequad

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 4, 2018
do people think the youngsters will keep their quads once they move into seniors (and heck, past their first two senior seasons)
 

neusw

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
do people think the youngsters will keep their quads once they move into seniors (and heck, past their first two senior seasons)

Very hard to predict without knowing exactly how their bodies look like after growing. Heck, even hard to predict if you have a good idea what their bodies will look like. When people grow and develop more muscles, they don't necessarily jump lower (often the jumps are actually higher), but rotation speed definitely slows down, so it's a matter of whether the decrease in rotation speed can be compensated by any increase in jump height. I think regardless of whether they will have quads as adults, the key is to remember that they will probably never have problems jumping all their triples, so they will remain very competitive at the top levels (even if there are a couple new young quadsters joining the senior ranks every year to compete with).
 

j00mla

Made in USSR
Final Flight
Joined
Jan 2, 2017
do people think the youngsters will keep their quads once they move into seniors (and heck, past their first two senior seasons)

- I'm curious how many times the topic of what will happen to a figure skater during transition from juniors to seniors was raised? :scratch2:
- Not incalculable :drama:

- Аnd how many times, the initiator was able to tell others at least a grain of new information? :scratch2:
- Not once :laugh2:
 

moonkat

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 13, 2013
Country
United-States
do people think the youngsters will keep their quads once they move into seniors (and heck, past their first two senior seasons)

So? A quad is a quad. If they don't train as juniors the possibility of doing quads as seniors is slim.

Here I will summarize the general opinion: "Quad doesn't count because female skater is not 18"
 

sanfan

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 23, 2018
So? A quad is a quad. If they don't train as juniors the possibility of doing quads as seniors is slim.

Here I will summarize the general opinion: "Quad doesn't count because female skater is not 18"

I don't believe so. Yuzuru started to do quads after he turned senior. I believe it's pretty common for men in the past.
And we just saw Rika's quads in the training video.

It's not about the quad does count or not. People are just concerned about the longevity of skaters' success, and there is nothing wrong with it.
 

sx98423

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
I don't believe so. Yuzuru started to do quads after he turned senior. I believe it's pretty common for men in the past.
And we just saw Rika's quads in the training video.

It's not about the quad does count or not. People are just concerned about the longevity of skaters' success, and there is nothing wrong with it.

im pretty sure rika trained quads back when she was in juniors as well.

of course there will be cases where seniors get 3A's and quads but it's definitely easier to get them when you're younger and work to keep them rather than to start learning them in seniors. apart from several skaters/coaches saying this i think it's pretty common sense. everything we do comes easier when you start earlier. i picked up english in like 2 days when i was 5 if i wanted to learn a new language now i could probably study for years and still not be completely fluent. it's the same with skating, sasha just keeps collecting quads while jason has been working on one quad for a while now.
 

Hevari

Drivers start your engines!
On the Ice
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
For me the main question is - does ladies single skating need quads at all?
 

solani

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Country
Austria
Here I will summarize the general opinion: "Quad doesn't count because female skater is not 18"
Those quads count, but they just don't impress me as much as if an 18 year old would do it. That would really really really impress me.
 
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