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Thread: Is the 3A undervalued in women's TES?

  1. #31
    Bona Fide Member Ares's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlotte14 View Post
    No, the danger of the elements should go along with the BV. If they want to push the limit, they should encourage the points for more difficult and dangerous elements.
    This statement also holds water If it depended on me I'd give more points for these elements in Pairs as well.

    I's possible also that they were not really pondering on it all that much and not in ways we imagine when attributing those values.

  2. #32
    On the Ice Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayuki View Post
    That's not how it works.

    With one 3A it's as mentioned:

    3A
    3Lz-3Lo
    3Lz-1Lo-3S
    3F-3T
    3F
    2A
    2A

    Base value: 52.00
    Backloaded(other than 3A) base value: 56.35

    With your suggested layout:

    3A
    3A+2T
    3Lz
    3Lz+3T
    3F+1Lo+3S
    3Lo
    2A

    Base value: 53.2
    Backloaded(Other than 3A, 3A+2T): 56.69

    Points gained: 0.34, in fact.

    So that's my point. You don't get "8.5 points a second time". You only get 0.34 points more. It's a waste of effort.
    I understand that. What I am saying is that if your 3A is better than your 3Lz+3Lo, why not go for the layout with the two 3A's? You gain an extra point, plus you don't have to do a hard combo.

    What i was really offering a comparison with, though, was the program with 3A and 3A+3T versus the one with 3A and 3A+2T. (See post #20 above.) By redistributing your points a little, you give up only 1.5 points or so, and you don't have to undertake any highly difficult combos, like 3A+3T. (Or 3Lz+3Lo. Or any combo that ends in 3Lo, which begs for a UR call anyway.)

    The idea is to maximize your points within your capabilities, rather than to create a program on paper that no one can actually do.
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-14-2018 at 02:53 PM.

  3. #33
    Bona Fide Member Shayuki's Avatar
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    Reminder that Trusova performed the actual optimized layout for 2 different quads... Optimized layouts will be a thing, these aren't "layouts no one can do" if Trusova just performed one.

    By not doing -3Lo combo you only lose 1 point. So in that case, performing a second 3A would only be worth 1.34 points more with your layout. Is it really worth it, even at that point? I don't think so, to me the risk of failure or poor GOE on a 3A far outweighs 1.3 points in BV.

    I strongly believe that repeating a 3A is almost never a good idea. The benefit over just doing a single one is minimal. Only if the 3A is at a rock solid, stable level is it a good plan. But at that point, a quad would be far more potent still and with such a comfortable 3A, could be possible.

  4. #34
    ~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~ Ladskater's Avatar
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    Oh boy, I'm going out on a limb here because I'm from the "old school" of Figure Skating. Personally, I don't want women skaters feeling they have to do the triple A. I'd rather see a beautifully skated, well choreographed program. This idea of doing all the jumps in the second half of the program leaves me cold also. If there are ladies out there who can do the triple A then they should go for it, but overall if ladies are going to end up getting injured trying to best one another, it's not worth it.

  5. #35
    Medalist jillredhand's Avatar
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    For all the people saying that a lot of ladies have bad technique on the 2A-- isn't that at least partially because there's so little incentive for them to go for the 3A? As in, when learning your technique for all the other jumps, you know you're going to have to get triples of all of them to be able to compete, so you work hard on perfecting their technique. But knowing that the 2A is the practical cap on difficulty, there's less incentive to be able to train perfect axel technique so that a triple is reliable in the future. IDK for sure, but since a 2A is never the big points-getter in a ladies' program, is it any surprise that you often see less than great technique on them?

    I would be in favour of the 3A becoming a near-necessary staple for ladies, like quads are for men. Yes, few women have attempted and landed it, but enough have that any argument that it's "not possible" for women to do so is nonsensical. It would require a big revolution in early training and many of the currently competing ladies wouldn't be able to keep up with the change-- but the very best of the sport should always be the ones who can best marry the artistic and athletic sides of the sport. I'd rather see some excitement from ladies pushing the boundaries and going for "Higher, Further, Faster," than to see too many programs with virtually the same technical content, even if they are skated perfectly. For as much as we lament that Jason Brown or Misha Ge or Patrick Chan can't outscore the quadsters, there's a lot of real excitement in watching the men's field, for the contrast between "PCS" skaters and "TES" skaters, and how the risky jumps mean that unpredictable results are possible. And, ultimately, the real cream of the crop, who can max both tech and art, do rise to the top.

    We might be heading in that direction anyway right now. We have more ladies attempting the 3A (and quads) than at any prior point (I think? Rika, Liza, and Mirai all attempted and/or landed the 3A in this season, while I think the max has been two ladies in a season before), and the apparently unending dominance of the Russian ladies means that other skaters will be searching for a way to get a leg up on them. Plus, Alina and Evgenia have between them more or less maxed out the ceiling on difficulty and scoring, without going up to the next level of 3As and quads.

  6. #36
    Bona Fide Member Shayuki's Avatar
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    The ability to perform just a single 3A per program truly is useful if it is as stable as a normal triple. Just think about Zagitova vs Medvedeva - Zagitova's base value is 66.01 and Medvedeva's 62.33. Zagitova's BV is considered almost impossible a gap for Medvedeva to make up with her base value, yet it's only 3.68 points less. You think about the optimal 3A layout with the rest of Zagitova's program - The base value would be 71.65 which is 5.64 points more. If the skater could perform it consistently, it would in turn be an insurmountable gap for Zagitova to make up for. Adding a 3A in the SP is worth 4.87 points in BV, which is perhaps even more significant considering the smaller margins in the SP. It's over 10 points in total.

    My honest opinion is that if a skater was actually able to skate rock solid, stable programs that are manufactured in Eteri-style while also performing a 3A in both SP and FS, they would truly be impossible to defeat without one having a difficult jump of their own. Now, would the existence of that sort of a skater be realistic?

  7. #37
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Remember the time when some expert said in the commentary that 3Lz3T is harder than 3A2T because of the extra 1/2 rotation.
    Oh boy~~ it seems like yesterday.

  8. #38
    陈巍 oatmella's Avatar
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    I think so. I used to only watch ladies skating, but the men’s technical content and pushing it forward has been so exciting. Backloading and arms in the air has become so deathly boring to me and it would be nice to see ladies actually advancing the technical content as well.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by shyne View Post
    Remember the time when some expert said in the commentary that 3Lz3T is harder than 3A2T because of the extra 1/2 rotation.
    Oh boy~~ it seems like yesterday.
    Yup, I remember that.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by shyne View Post
    Remember the time when some expert said in the commentary that 3Lz3T is harder than 3A2T because of the extra 1/2 rotation.
    Oh boy~~ it seems like yesterday.
    in that case, how bout everyone just do as many single jumps as they can?
    (sarcasm)

  11. #41
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    they were saying this during 2010 olympics sp. how yuna's combo is more awesome than mao

  12. #42
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    Yes, the triple axel is undervalued in the ladies event.

  13. #43
    🐾 Size 7 KnifeBoots 🐾 Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    If skaters would start doing 3a’s in the last half of their program it would be worth more

  14. #44
    陈巍 oatmella's Avatar
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    I think I recall a commentator saying that Yuna and Mao's combos were about equal during 2010 olympics SP.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayuki View Post
    Reminder that Trusova performed the actual optimized layout for 2 different quads... Optimized layouts will be a thing, these aren't "layouts no one can do" if Trusova just performed one.

    By not doing -3Lo combo you only lose 1 point. So in that case, performing a second 3A would only be worth 1.34 points more with your layout. Is it really worth it, even at that point? I don't think so, to me the risk of failure or poor GOE on a 3A far outweighs 1.3 points in BV.

    I strongly believe that repeating a 3A is almost never a good idea. The benefit over just doing a single one is minimal. Only if the 3A is at a rock solid, stable level is it a good plan. But at that point, a quad would be far more potent still and with such a comfortable 3A, could be possible.
    I totally agree regarding the optimized layouts.
    The main problem with repeating the triple axel is the fact that you are only allowed to repeat two kinds of triples.
    If they would consider the triple axel as a quad for the repeat count I think we might start to see some crazy content, esp. from Kihira.

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