Is the 3A undervalued in women's TES? | Golden Skate

Is the 3A undervalued in women's TES?

Colonel Green

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2018
Country
Canada
This spins out of a discussion over in one of the fan threads, about whether for women it's worth attempting a Triple Axel or not. It got me thinking that, while the IJS scoring system's technical ratings maintain uniform values for jumps across the different genders, it seems to me like this significantly undervalues the Triple Axel in the context of women's skating.

How many women have done a Triple Axel in competition? Nine? It's much rarer in women's skating than quads are in men's skating, yet the scoring system doesn't really reward the women who can pull it off.

It seems to me that that's a scoring issue no matter whether you think the TES scoring system should be primarily about rewarding the difficulty of a jump or about incentivizing skaters to push the boundaries of the sport. Because if the dearth of 3As is really that only a handful of women in the sport can do one, then that level of skill should be reflected for the ones who have actually managed it. Whereas, if the 3A could be more widespread but isn't because most ladies don't think the risk/reward ratio is remotely adequate, than the scoring system isn't providing enough incentive.
 

Step Sequence4

JULLLIEEEEETTTT!
Final Flight
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
I really only think it’s worth it with the IJS if you can do two. I think it may be a combination of what you said about how much it’s worth, and the fact that so many of the top women have quite sloppy 2A’s. Take Evgenia for example. A lot of the most recent mistakes I can think of her making are on double axels. So really a lot of the top women don’t have the 2A technique to make it a 3A I’d guess. Anyone know how close BV for 3Lz + 3Lo & 3A are?
 

frida80

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
This spins out of a discussion over in one of the fan threads, about whether for women it's worth attempting a Triple Axel or not. It got me thinking that, while the IJS scoring system's technical ratings maintain uniform values for jumps across the different genders, it seems to me like this significantly undervalues the Triple Axel in the context of women's skating.

How many women have done a Triple Axel in competition? Nine? It's much rarer in women's skating than quads are in men's skating, yet the scoring system doesn't really reward the women who can pull it off.

It seems to me that that's a scoring issue no matter whether you think the TES scoring system should be primarily about rewarding the difficulty of a jump or about incentivizing skaters to push the boundaries of the sport. Because if the dearth of 3As is really that only a handful of women in the sport can do one, then that level of skill should be reflected for the ones who have actually managed it. Whereas, if the 3A could be more widespread but isn't because most ladies don't think the risk/reward ratio is remotely adequate, than the scoring system isn't providing enough incentive.

Eight women. Two have landed quads. Very small group.
 

Mawwerg

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
I think we will see more triple axels. Russian and Japanese are now almost forced to use any opportunity to gain some advantage in domestic competitions.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
As far as we know, ISU is about to nerf the quads (which are harder and rarer than 3A). Basically, ISU thinks that those jumps are valued too much.
 

sheetz

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 10, 2015
I don't think women are allowed to do quads in the SP so someone who can do a 3A in the SP and two 3As in the FS should theoretically still be competitive with Trusova.
 

Globetrotter

Medalist
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Oh I think it will be fine. The BV is about right to me. It is the GOE scoring and the tendency to reward tricks over solid techniques that has somehow made it appear that the 3A is undervalued. On its own, the BV imo is reasonable.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I think the 3A BV should be higher. A perfectly executed 3Lz in the bonus would earn 8.7 points (Alina got 8.6 for her's in the Team LP). The BV for a 3A is 8.5, and as well as Mirai did her's in the Team event, she earned fewer than 1.5 points more than Alina's late-program lutz. As others have mentioned, there is a huge drop off in the number of women who have landed the 3A versus the 3Lz, so the scoring should reflect that.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Should be 9.9. Every extra revolution gets you three times as many points. Single Axel, 1.1. Double Axel 3.3. Triple Axel 9.9. :yes:
 
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Skye

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
With a 3A you can jump one less 2A, so you have to compare the scores between the two. A perfect 2A (4.8 points with +3 GOE across the board) is about the same value as a 3A with a fall (4.5 points including deduction) which is just about right IMO. Of course there will be more incentive (ergo, more attemps) if the BV of 3A is raised, but the reality is there aren't even that many girls that can do a good 2A. Do we really want to see them falling all over the ice like the men do with quads?
 

lyndichee

Medalist
Joined
Sep 16, 2014
With a 3A you can jump one less 2A, so you have to compare the scores between the two. A perfect 2A (4.8 points with +3 GOE across the board) is about the same value as a 3A with a fall (4.5 points including deduction) which is just about right IMO. Of course there will be more incentive (ergo, more attemps) if the BV of 3A is raised, but the reality is there aren't even that many girls that can do a good 2A. Do we really want to see them falling all over the ice like the men do with quads?

The interruption in the program for a fall and the disappointment of not landing such a pivotal jump is more costly so I think the incentive of training a 3A isn't as high.

To be honest, I am all for the scoring system made to encourage ladies to push the envelope technically. I'd love to see ISU at some point take a stance where 3A fall doesn't take a -1 point deduction or a similar incentive to push the technical side. I'm not a huge fan of backloaded programs; whether my idea is the best way to encourage it is up for debate, but I would like to see something similar.
 

TryMeLater

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
This spins out of a discussion over in one of the fan threads, about whether for women it's worth attempting a Triple Axel or not. It got me thinking that, while the IJS scoring system's technical ratings maintain uniform values for jumps across the different genders, it seems to me like this significantly undervalues the Triple Axel in the context of women's skating.

How many women have done a Triple Axel in competition? Nine? It's much rarer in women's skating than quads are in men's skating, yet the scoring system doesn't really reward the women who can pull it off.

It seems to me that that's a scoring issue no matter whether you think the TES scoring system should be primarily about rewarding the difficulty of a jump or about incentivizing skaters to push the boundaries of the sport. Because if the dearth of 3As is really that only a handful of women in the sport can do one, then that level of skill should be reflected for the ones who have actually managed it. Whereas, if the 3A could be more widespread but isn't because most ladies don't think the risk/reward ratio is remotely adequate, than the scoring system isn't providing enough incentive.

Yes, esp. when they plan that a 2A with +5 GOE will earn ~5points and a 3Lz with +5 GOE will earn 9 points.
 

skatenewbie

Medalist
Joined
Mar 16, 2017
Yea it should worth at least 9 point. Or 9.5? I think the idea 9.9 because 1A have 1.1 and 2A 3.3. (3 times each extra revolution) is not bad but 9.9 a bit too high. 4T is only 10.3. Maybe 9.2~9.5 is okay
 

pohatta

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
If you do or attempt a 3A in the LP, it's still possible to do 7 other triples and two 2A's. So in a way, 3A replaces a 2T or some other insignificant combination jump in the layout. I think 3A can give a considerable boost to the base value.
 

Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Why 3A? 3A already is far more common than quads for ladies. The 3A has a massive advantage over quads because it can be used in SP unlike quads. Because of that, 3A's by far the most important of the "difficult" jumps to get, and a 3A in SP and a 3A in FS are quite a bit more impactful than just doing one quad in the FS.

I see the point in increasing a 3A's value in relation to other triples, but surely quads' value should be increased even further in that case.
 

Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
I will point out a common misconception, however. The 3A should not be compared to the other triple jumps because they're capped at 7 no matter what. Those don't compete against each other and that's not what is important.

I will use a potential more or less optimized layout without 3A:

3Lz+3Lo
3Lz+2T+2Lo
3F+3T
3F
3S
2A
2A

Base value: 46.1
Backloaded base value: 50.71

And with 3A:

3A
3Lz-3Lo
3Lz-1Lo-3S
3F-3T
3F
2A
2A

Base value: 52.00
Backloaded(other than 3A) base value: 56.35


So adding a 3A actually adds around 5.64 points in base value. It's much more significant than just thinking of a 3A as something that only gives 2.5 points more than a 3Lutz.

Optimized layout with a second 3A in a combo:

3A
3A+3T
3Lz-3Lo
3Lz-1Lo-3S
3F
2A
2A

Base value: 55.2
Backloaded(Other than 3A and 3A+3T) base value: 58.59

Here it adds only a bit more than 2 points in base value and this is the thing with repeating 3A. It's not very useful. Learning a quad instead would have much more impact:

3A
4T
3Lz-3Lo
3Lz-1S-3S
3F-3T
3F
2A

Base value: 59.2
Backloaded(other then 3A and 4T) base value: 63.22

So adding a quad instead of a second 3A is worth almost 5 more points in base value.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Optimized layout with a second 3A in a combo:

3A
3A+3T
3Lz-3Lo
3Lz-1Lo-3S
3F
2A
2A

If your triple Axel is solid enough to do a combination, you wouldn't even have to kill yourself with the rest of the program. Something like

3A
3A+2T
3Lz
3Lz+3T
3F+1Lo+3S
3Lo
2A

This would give up only a couple of points to the theoretical maximum and would be quite a reasonable goal for a skater with a money-in-the-bank triple Axel (and a reliable triple Lutz).
 
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