Is the 3A undervalued in women's TES? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Is the 3A undervalued in women's TES?

draqq

FigureSkatingPhenom
Record Breaker
Joined
May 10, 2010
The value of the 3A is more significant in the short program as the ladies short does not yet include quads as an option. Also, the GOE for a quality 3A is boosted slightly so that a +2 on it means 2 points (versus 1.4 points for the other triples).

If a ladies skater can land the 3A somewhat consistently and fully rotated, it's well worth the risk and will almost guarantee that you'll make a national team barring any pops and the like.
 

bobbob

Medalist
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
No, I don't think so. Already a lady with a consistent 3A stands to gain a 6 point advantage in the short and free, 12 points overall, which is more than ANY quad can do including a 4Lz, since no quads in the short. More of a boost than that would hurt other aspects of the skating. Additionally, there should be no fundamental different between women's and men's scoring.
 

Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
If your triple Axel is solid enough to do a combination, you wouldn't even have to kill yourself with the rest of the program. Something like

3A
3A+2T
3Lz
3Lz+3T
3F+1Lo+3S
3Lo
2A

This would give up only a couple of points to the theoretical maximum and would be quite a reasonable goal for a skater with a money-in-the-bank triple Axel (and a reliable triple Lutz).

That's only like 0.7 points more than just doing a single 3A. Why even repeat it at that point? By the way, this is exactly what Rika does. And exactly why I think it's very suboptimal.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
That's only like 0.7 points more than just doing a single 3A. Why even repeat it at that point? By the way, this is exactly what Rika does. And exactly why I think it's very suboptimal.

Well, you repeat the 3A so you can get 8.5 points twice. The same reason that you repeat a triple Lutz instead of one of the lesser-valued jumps.

Scoringwise, I think the only difference is that you did a 2T instead of one of the double Axels. In exchange you don't have to attempt a 3Lz+3Lo, which very few ladies can do, and you don't have to do a 3A+3T which no woman has ever done at all.

By the way, this is essentially Evan Lysacek's jump layout in the 2010 Olympics. (Except that Evan didn't have to double up on the flip and Salchow in the same jumping pass.)
 
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pohatta

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Scoringwise, I think the only difference is that you did a 2T instead of one of the double Axels. In exchange you don't have to attempt a 3Lz+3Lo, which very few ladies can do, and you don't have to do a 3A+3T which no woman has ever done at all.

In Shayuki's layout you don't need to combine 3Lo with 3Lz, you could do 2A-3Lo. Although I don't think I've seen anyone do it.

Midori's 3A-3T: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-wCqJmwQRA
 

skatenewbie

Medalist
Joined
Mar 16, 2017
Well, you repeat the 3A so you can get 8.5 points twice. The same reason that you repeat a triple Lutz instead of one of the lesser-valued jumps.

Scoringwise, I think the only difference is that you did a 2T instead of one of the double Axels. In exchange you don't have to attempt a 3Lz+3Lo, which very few ladies can do, and you don't have to do a 3A+3T which no woman has ever done at all.

By the way, this is essentially Evan Lysacek's jump layout in the 2010 Olympics. (Except that Evan didn't have to double up on the flip and Salchow in the same jumping pass.)
Rika Kihira have done ratified 3A+3T in JGPF. Midori and Mirai and Mao land it in practices only though.
 

charlotte14

Medalist
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
I think BV of 3A and quads for ladies are fine. The real issue is the BV of these elements for pair throw. A throw 3A, throw quad = CRAZILY dangerous and should get higher BV.
 

Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Well, you repeat the 3A so you can get 8.5 points twice. The same reason that you repeat a triple Lutz instead of one of the lesser-valued jumps.
That's not how it works.

With one 3A it's as mentioned:

3A
3Lz-3Lo
3Lz-1Lo-3S
3F-3T
3F
2A
2A

Base value: 52.00
Backloaded(other than 3A) base value: 56.35

With your suggested layout:

3A
3A+2T
3Lz
3Lz+3T
3F+1Lo+3S
3Lo
2A

Base value: 53.2
Backloaded(Other than 3A, 3A+2T): 56.69

Points gained: 0.34, in fact.

So that's my point. You don't get "8.5 points a second time". You only get 0.34 points more. It's a waste of effort.
 

Ares

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Country
Poland
I think BV of 3A and quads for ladies are fine. The real issue is the BV of these elements for pair throw. A throw 3A, throw quad = CRAZILY dangerous and should get higher BV.

Maybe they don't give higher BV for those elements for those reasons actually. ;) Like in ''don't try it unless you're already very secure doing that''.

I don't think 3A at least in singles is undervalued, but in the past it really used to be. Only after 2007/2008 season they upgraded its base value from 7,5 to 8,2. Now it's 8,5 in first half.

And if they assessed your triple axel as underrotated they'd downgrade it back to 2A BV, which was often disproportionate punishment. People love reiterating that Mao Asada landed 3 triple axels in Vancouver making history and it indeed looked like that, but they are often unaware that one of her triple axels was downgraded back into 2A :drama: That was the primary reason why Joannie Rochette was surprisingly close to getting silver.
 

charlotte14

Medalist
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Maybe they don't give higher BV for those elements for those reasons actually. ;) Like in ''don't try it unless you're already very secure doing that''.
No, the danger of the elements should go along with the BV. If they want to push the limit, they should encourage the points for more difficult and dangerous elements.
 

Ares

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Country
Poland
No, the danger of the elements should go along with the BV. If they want to push the limit, they should encourage the points for more difficult and dangerous elements.

This statement also holds water :) If it depended on me I'd give more points for these elements in Pairs as well.

I's possible also that they were not really pondering on it all that much and not in ways we imagine when attributing those values.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
That's not how it works.

With one 3A it's as mentioned:

3A
3Lz-3Lo
3Lz-1Lo-3S
3F-3T
3F
2A
2A

Base value: 52.00
Backloaded(other than 3A) base value: 56.35

With your suggested layout:

3A
3A+2T
3Lz
3Lz+3T
3F+1Lo+3S
3Lo
2A

Base value: 53.2
Backloaded(Other than 3A, 3A+2T): 56.69

Points gained: 0.34, in fact.

So that's my point. You don't get "8.5 points a second time". You only get 0.34 points more. It's a waste of effort.

I understand that. What I am saying is that if your 3A is better than your 3Lz+3Lo, why not go for the layout with the two 3A's? You gain an extra point, plus you don't have to do a hard combo.

What i was really offering a comparison with, though, was the program with 3A and 3A+3T versus the one with 3A and 3A+2T. (See post #20 above.) By redistributing your points a little, you give up only 1.5 points or so, and you don't have to undertake any highly difficult combos, like 3A+3T. (Or 3Lz+3Lo. Or any combo that ends in 3Lo, which begs for a UR call anyway.)

The idea is to maximize your points within your capabilities, rather than to create a program on paper that no one can actually do.
 
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Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Reminder that Trusova performed the actual optimized layout for 2 different quads... Optimized layouts will be a thing, these aren't "layouts no one can do" if Trusova just performed one.

By not doing -3Lo combo you only lose 1 point. So in that case, performing a second 3A would only be worth 1.34 points more with your layout. Is it really worth it, even at that point? I don't think so, to me the risk of failure or poor GOE on a 3A far outweighs 1.3 points in BV.

I strongly believe that repeating a 3A is almost never a good idea. The benefit over just doing a single one is minimal. Only if the 3A is at a rock solid, stable level is it a good plan. But at that point, a quad would be far more potent still and with such a comfortable 3A, could be possible.
 

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Oh boy, I'm going out on a limb here because I'm from the "old school" of Figure Skating. Personally, I don't want women skaters feeling they have to do the triple A. I'd rather see a beautifully skated, well choreographed program. This idea of doing all the jumps in the second half of the program leaves me cold also. If there are ladies out there who can do the triple A then they should go for it, but overall if ladies are going to end up getting injured trying to best one another, it's not worth it.
 

jillredhand

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
For all the people saying that a lot of ladies have bad technique on the 2A-- isn't that at least partially because there's so little incentive for them to go for the 3A? As in, when learning your technique for all the other jumps, you know you're going to have to get triples of all of them to be able to compete, so you work hard on perfecting their technique. But knowing that the 2A is the practical cap on difficulty, there's less incentive to be able to train perfect axel technique so that a triple is reliable in the future. IDK for sure, but since a 2A is never the big points-getter in a ladies' program, is it any surprise that you often see less than great technique on them?

I would be in favour of the 3A becoming a near-necessary staple for ladies, like quads are for men. Yes, few women have attempted and landed it, but enough have that any argument that it's "not possible" for women to do so is nonsensical. It would require a big revolution in early training and many of the currently competing ladies wouldn't be able to keep up with the change-- but the very best of the sport should always be the ones who can best marry the artistic and athletic sides of the sport. I'd rather see some excitement from ladies pushing the boundaries and going for "Higher, Further, Faster," than to see too many programs with virtually the same technical content, even if they are skated perfectly. For as much as we lament that Jason Brown or Misha Ge or Patrick Chan can't outscore the quadsters, there's a lot of real excitement in watching the men's field, for the contrast between "PCS" skaters and "TES" skaters, and how the risky jumps mean that unpredictable results are possible. And, ultimately, the real cream of the crop, who can max both tech and art, do rise to the top.

We might be heading in that direction anyway right now. We have more ladies attempting the 3A (and quads) than at any prior point (I think? Rika, Liza, and Mirai all attempted and/or landed the 3A in this season, while I think the max has been two ladies in a season before), and the apparently unending dominance of the Russian ladies means that other skaters will be searching for a way to get a leg up on them. Plus, Alina and Evgenia have between them more or less maxed out the ceiling on difficulty and scoring, without going up to the next level of 3As and quads.
 

Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
The ability to perform just a single 3A per program truly is useful if it is as stable as a normal triple. Just think about Zagitova vs Medvedeva - Zagitova's base value is 66.01 and Medvedeva's 62.33. Zagitova's BV is considered almost impossible a gap for Medvedeva to make up with her base value, yet it's only 3.68 points less. You think about the optimal 3A layout with the rest of Zagitova's program - The base value would be 71.65 which is 5.64 points more. If the skater could perform it consistently, it would in turn be an insurmountable gap for Zagitova to make up for. Adding a 3A in the SP is worth 4.87 points in BV, which is perhaps even more significant considering the smaller margins in the SP. It's over 10 points in total.

My honest opinion is that if a skater was actually able to skate rock solid, stable programs that are manufactured in Eteri-style while also performing a 3A in both SP and FS, they would truly be impossible to defeat without one having a difficult jump of their own. Now, would the existence of that sort of a skater be realistic?
 

shyne

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 13, 2015
Remember the time when some expert said in the commentary that 3Lz3T is harder than 3A2T because of the extra 1/2 rotation.
Oh boy~~ it seems like yesterday.
 

oatmella

陈巍
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
I think so. I used to only watch ladies skating, but the men’s technical content and pushing it forward has been so exciting. Backloading and arms in the air has become so deathly boring to me and it would be nice to see ladies actually advancing the technical content as well.
 

Koatterce

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 20, 2018
Country
Canada
Remember the time when some expert said in the commentary that 3Lz3T is harder than 3A2T because of the extra 1/2 rotation.
Oh boy~~ it seems like yesterday.

in that case, how bout everyone just do as many single jumps as they can?
(sarcasm)
 
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