How Do We Measure Musicality in FS? | Golden Skate

How Do We Measure Musicality in FS?

Izabela

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Since I started watching Figure Skating I'm really drawn to a skater's musicality but reading posts here about it kinda make me question how I usually define this term, or how to pinpoint whether a skater has it or not. Do we use the same definition about musicality the way we do in dance. By that I don't mean Ice Dance but dancing in general; in terms of musical receptivity and musical creativity. Do we have to know the meaning and intention of the composer beforehand to know if a skater exhibits musicality or not?

I'm not musically trained so my "shortcut" to know a skater's musicality has always been to watch their performance, and then later listen to music they skate to. How easily I can imagine their movements when listening to the music is often my sign about whether that skater exhibits musicality or not. But is that really musicality or choreography?

Generally I just want to know how y'all gauge a skater's musicality, and whether there is an objective (or at least close to objectivity) when it comes to this.
 

asiacheetah

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 15, 2017
Maybe because I learned several musical instruments when I was younger, I can pick up differences in music such as tonal change, rhythm, etc. Personally, I judge musicality in figure skating on whether the skater skates WITH their music or skate over it. Is their program and skating changing speed and dynamics with the music? Are they using musical accents to land jumps or finish spins. Are the emotions and performance conveying fit with the intent of the music at all?

A pet peeve of mine is when skaters don't seem to even register their music and just goes from element to element. Little flourishes with music are appreciated, but are they token while the rest of the program skated over.

The best recent example I can think of where the program is choreographed down to the note are Yuzuru's SP Chopin and (I just recently rewatched it) Yuna Kim's SP and LP Vancouver Olympics program.

There are too many examples of recent skates where there's no correlation between music and performance so I'm not going to go there and start a flame war.

Edit: also, if a program and skater is really using the music, you can mute the sound and still hear their music in your head based on their movements. Just something I noticed when re-watching some program in crowded places where I can't hear that well.
 

Izabela

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
The best recent example I can think of where the program is choreographed down to the note are Yuzuru's SP Chopin and (I just recently rewatched it) Yuna Kim's SP and LP Vancouver Olympics program.

There are too many examples of recent skates where there's no correlation between music and performance so I'm not going to go there and start a flame war.

Edit: also, if a program and skater is really using the music, you can mute the sound and still hear their music in your head based on their movements. Just something I noticed when re-watching some program in crowded places where I can't hear that well.

I picked that one up with regards to Yuzuru and also his Seimei (Although his musicality is not always there for me). With Yuna, she always has an innate musicality, yes, but I think if there's a perfect example, it's Adios Nonino? I can easily tell just by listening to her Adios music where her jumps are, or even down to her little arm movements (and honestly less so with her Les Miserables)

I haven't really try muting the sound; I'll try that one out and see if the results are the same.

(I'm too young to follow figure skating before 2009 so I'm also curious about their musicality, or whether it's more prominent back then compared to now.)
 

Xen

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Generally I just want to know how y'all gauge a skater's musicality, and whether there is an objective (or at least close to objectivity) when it comes to this.


*takes a deeeeep breath* Can you pass me the popcorn too? I can see how this thread can go already...

The the OP:

-I don't think musicality has an objective definition yet in figure skating. But personally, I think the one you had for dance is pretty decent. =)
- Personally, how I view the "musicality" of a skater is like below:
a. Is the skater changing the tempo and movements of their arms/legs/expression to match the music? For example, does a soft portion of the music feel different from the climax/dramatic portion of the music? If it's dramatic throughout, or soft throughout, is the skater technically able to express and stay in-line with the music? In this way, what you already do (ie trying to ID the music type through just the skating movements alone outside of jumps) is probably fine.
b. Bonus round: Is there a significant variety in the types of music the skater is able to perform to?

What I think influences the "musicality" a skater has in a program though, other than inherent musicality, is a combination of choreography and technique. If the Choreography isn't matching the music well, then there's always going to be something a bit off sync. However, choreography has its limitations partially due to skater's layout plans, and natural technical ability. For example, a skater who lacks absolute mastery of edge control, may have trouble varying the pacing of their gliding, footwork etc. Same with jump technique-people with softer jump landings and less setup time can probably even fit jumps into more parts of the music, because it can feel like a choreographic element (ie Yuzuru Hanyu's hidden 3F in the long program).

My faves if you want it (and here I will need the popcorn maybe?):
- East of Eden from Michelle Kwan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYwAZb14Ags)
- Mao Asada's LP from Sochi, especially the ending part (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjEoBfmn1SU)-I just didn't want to watch another person skate to Rach, ever again, after her
-Most of Yuzuru Hanyu's programs, but Notte Stellata stands out
- Sasha Cohen is usually pretty good, but especially her swan lake stood out to me
 

Izabela

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
This is actually what makes me curious about figure skating. Is it actually better for skaters (if they intend to be both technically superior and be "musical") to not only have a coach that can work close with them, but also a choreographer that can work with them for a long time? I understand the downside of that is having seemingly "repetitive" choreographic movement but to be able to make a balance out of technical difficulty and artistry, would that be a better way for a skater? Because for me a choreographer is half of the "coaching" part of figure skating.

I completely share your sentiment though about Mao's Sochi LP. The final leg of her program is one of the best and most moving skating I've seen from anyone.

@Ic3Rabbit: Will check those out. Thanks!
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
This is actually what makes me curious about figure skating. Is it actually better for skaters (if they intend to be both technically superior and be "musical") to not only have a coach that can work close with them, but also a choreographer that can work with them for a long time? I understand the downside of that is having seemingly "repetitive" choreographic movement but to be able to make a balance out of technical difficulty and artistry, would that be a better way for a skater? Because for me a choreographer is half of the "coaching" part of figure skating.

I completely share your sentiment though about Mao's Sochi LP. The final leg of her program is one of the best and most moving skating I've seen from anyone.

@Ic3Rabbit: Will check those out. Thanks!

A excellent choreographer will be able to have their skater adapt to many different types of music and do it w/o missing a beat (literally and figuratively). ;)
 

Lester

Piper and Paul are made of magic dust and unicorns
Final Flight
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Do we have to know the meaning and intention of the composer beforehand to know if a skater exhibits musicality or not?

I think it is sufficient to observe that the skater is influenced by the music in some way and through his movement seeks to enhance the musical phrase.
What the composer thought... well, it is more important what he managed to convey through his work than what he might have intended or not.
 

Xen

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
This is actually what makes me curious about figure skating. Is it actually better for skaters (if they intend to be both technically superior and be "musical") to not only have a coach that can work close with them, but also a choreographer that can work with them for a long time? I understand the downside of that is having seemingly "repetitive" choreographic movement but to be able to make a balance out of technical difficulty and artistry, would that be a better way for a skater? Because for me a choreographer is half of the "coaching" part of figure skating.

I completely share your sentiment though about Mao's Sochi LP. The final leg of her program is one of the best and most moving skating I've seen from anyone.

@Ic3Rabbit: Will check those out. Thanks!

Other than what Ic3Rabbit has said about good choreographers, skaters will also "grow." Skating skills take time to perfect, so as the skater's skills grow their musicality and expression of that will also change. Compare Patrick Chan from 2010 to 2014 to 2016/2017. Or Yuzuru Hanyu from 2012 to now. Then there's the idea that skaters take time to find their own artistic "voice" so to speak. There's no need to stay with a set choreographer especially if it's not working out, but having a stable one means the choreographer can also grow with the skater, adapting to and drawing out that voice.

Well a lot of choreographers I think had skating backgrounds (like Shae Lynn or Jeff Buttle), so yes, you are correct that they should be rightly viewed as one half of the coaching part of FS. =)
 

MaiKatze

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Since I started watching Figure Skating I'm really drawn to a skater's musicality but reading posts here about it kinda make me question how I usually define this term, or how to pinpoint whether a skater has it or not. Do we use the same definition about musicality the way we do in dance. By that I don't mean Ice Dance but dancing in general; in terms of musical receptivity and musical creativity. Do we have to know the meaning and intention of the composer beforehand to know if a skater exhibits musicality or not?

I'm not musically trained so my "shortcut" to know a skater's musicality has always been to watch their performance, and then later listen to music they skate to. How easily I can imagine their movements when listening to the music is often my sign about whether that skater exhibits musicality or not. But is that really musicality or choreography?

Generally I just want to know how y'all gauge a skater's musicality, and whether there is an objective (or at least close to objectivity) when it comes to this.

I think it's impossible to measure. But everyone can see it, if a skater just skates through the music or to the music. Objectively possible, it could only be if every skater would skate to the same music. That's why some skaters made a piece their own, and one cannot unsee it. Comparisons will only turn to arguments, but let's take a piece that skaters love to skate to. 'La Strada'. I cannot unsee Daisuke Takahashi's skate to this, no matter who skates to it. Just watch these and decide for yourself. (And then wish, no one will use it ever again)

Igor Reznichenko - La Strada Europeans 2018
Valtter Virtanen - La Strada Europeans 2018
Boyang Jin - La Strada at 2017 Worlds
Daisuke Takahashi - La Strada at 2010 Worlds
 

lappo

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 12, 2016
I define musicality on a scale from 0 to Yuna Kim for ladies and from 0 to Daisuke Takahashi for men. To my grief, ISU doesn't seem to recognize my method.

ETA: thanks to the OP, I'm finding the various answers pretty interesting. In his recent interview with TSL Tom Dickson spoke about musicality and the ways to teach it to skaters.
 

draqq

FigureSkatingPhenom
Record Breaker
Joined
May 10, 2010
For me, musicality can be broken down into the two following pieces:

- Timing: This is mainly recognition of the beat of the chosen song. The skater should perform moves that emphasize the beat, especially if it's notable like a waltz, march, cha-cha, electronic dance song, anything with an definite measure.

Of course, just moving to the beat would be quite one-dimensional. So sometimes doing moves that match the phrasing and/or flourishes of the music helps to layer the choreography. And a top-tier program tends to put together three different movements, usually fast-slow-fast (see Virtue/Moir's Moulin Rouge) or slow-fast-slow (see Papadakis/Cizeron's Moonlight Sonata).

- Interpretation: This is really just matching the moods portrayed by the music. Sometimes it's very clear what the judges want to see in a traditional sense: the tango should be fiery, passionate, smoldering; the Viennese waltz light, fast, and airy; the cha-cha sassy, hot, and playful.

That said, a lot of pieces and programs can have many shades and moments to interpret, and how well the skater can shift from one mood to the next shows off his or her attention to detail. Some of the best examples I think are Yu-Na Kim's "Dance Macabre", Kwan's "Rachmaninoff", Hanyu's "Chopin Nocturne", and Fernandez's "Guys and Dolls".
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
For me, the most musical skaters in earlier decades were
Torvill & Dean
Kurt Browning

Lu Chen, Oksana Baiul, Nicole Bobek

Including professional as well as competitive programs, I think each of the above showed ability to interpret a wide range of musical styles.

But in any given program, it's more about getting a lot of detail and nuance out of every measure of the music within this particular program.

Generally acknowledging the overall style (slow or quick? lyrical or staccato? etc.), and beginings and endings of whole phrases is just the beginning.

Then acknowledging the downbeats of each measure where emphasized by stroking on the beats or including arm and body and head movements on the beats, and also perhaps upbeats or lesser stresses.

Then acknowledging little details where the music is doing something specific in this measure that it's not doing in all the other measures. E.g., holding out or delaying or anticipating a note, or counting in threes instead of twos (triplets), dotted rhythms, etc. Is the skater doing something with some part of the body to show that she hears and is using those specific details?
 
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