How Do We Measure Musicality in FS? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

How Do We Measure Musicality in FS?

Barb

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
musicality for me is one of the main differences between singles/pairs and dance, of course, there are exceptions like Mao and Satoko.
 

MIM

Medalist
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
First of all, thank you for starting the thread. It is always interesting to read posts that helps understanding correlation between music and movement. right?:)

Since I started watching Figure Skating I'm really drawn to a skater's musicality but reading posts here about it kinda make me question how I usually define this term, or how to pinpoint whether a skater has it or not. Do we use the same definition about musicality the way we do in dance. By that I don't mean Ice Dance but dancing in general; in terms of musical receptivity and musical creativity.
Yes, I agree. Generally, I feel harmonious when what I listen to is synchronized with and what I see. It gets exciting when unexpected and creative movement enhances the music I hear. I get ecstatic when technical elements and choreographic movements are weaved together to celebrate the music and create something bigger and more beautiful than the music originally was.

Do we have to know the meaning and intention of the composer beforehand to know if a skater exhibits musicality or not?
I think it helps skaters deepen understanding of the music and widen their ability to express. I also think it is possible to go with their own intuitive feeling. When young skater like Cha was asked what he did to develop his interpretation to Il Postino at the JGPF, he responded that he watched the movie many times. Yuna Kim actually gave the same responses to the question about her 007 SP. Flim OST is usually composed to serve the film. So, watching the movie to understand the context is effective to express the tone and mood of the music. When there is no visualization done, like classical music, you could find its abstractness empty/clueless or absolute freedom. That is where pure relationship between music and movements shapes. That is why I love Yuna's Gershwin, Mao's Chopin, Yuzu's Chopin, and Chan's Elegie(gala).
 

MIM

Medalist
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
i propose a scale from 0 to Anna Scherbakova :laugh:

Not to be rude, but isn't she the one in the far right? She is a beat slower to the music to follow the choreographer. I dont think this video displays her best musicality. The girl in the middle (Alena I assume?) has better musicality among the three. :)
 

russianfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 4, 2017
Not to be rude, but isn't she the one in the far right? She is a beat slower to the music to follow the choreographer. I dont think this video displays her best musicality. The girl in the middle (Alena I assume?) has better musicality among the three. :)

she is in the middle :biggrin:
 

lappo

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 12, 2016
Not to be rude, but isn't she the one in the far right? She is a beat slower to the music to follow the choreographer. I dont think this video displays her best musicality. The girl in the middle (Alena I assume?) has better musicality among the three. :)

I thought it was from left desktop to right Sasha, Anna and Alena...am I wrong?
 

steiner

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
I define musicality on a scale from 0 to Yuna Kim for ladies and from 0 to Daisuke Takahashi for men. To my grief, ISU doesn't seem to recognize my method.

ETA: thanks to the OP, I'm finding the various answers pretty interesting. In his recent interview with TSL Tom Dickson spoke about musicality and the ways to teach it to skaters.
That’s my scale too, with shoutouts to Akiko Suzuki and Yuzuru Hanyu.
 

MIM

Medalist
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
she is in the middle :biggrin:
Oh, great! I hope Anna keeps developing her musicality and grows as a beautiful skater! And proves it is not just aesthetically pleasing, but also a strong weapon to lead in the very competitive figure skating scene in Russia.

I thought it was from left desktop to right Sasha, Anna and Alena...am I wrong?
I just read the title of the youtube clip and assumed the names were listed in the order they appear on the screen. I better work on the face recognition as well as musicality:laugh: @russianfan, could you tag the name of the dancers? thanks!
 

russianfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 4, 2017
Oh, great! I hope Anna keeps developing her musicality and grows as a beautiful skater! And proves it is not just aesthetically pleasing, but also a strong weapon to lead in the very competitive figure skating scene in Russia.


I just read the title of the youtube clip and assumed the names were listed in the order they appear on the screen. I better work on the face recognition as well as musicality:laugh: @russianfan, could you tag the name of the dancers? thanks!

from left to right: Alexandra Trusova, Anna Scherbakova, Alena Kostornaya
 

MIM

Medalist
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
For me, the most musical skaters in earlier decades were
Torvill & Dean
Kurt Browning

Lu Chen, Oksana Baiul, Nicole Bobek

Including professional as well as competitive programs, I think each of the above showed ability to interpret a wide range of musical styles.

But in any given program, it's more about getting a lot of detail and nuance out of every measure of the music within this particular program.

Generally acknowledging the overall style (slow or quick? lyrical or staccato? etc.), and beginings and endings of whole phrases is just the beginning.

Then acknowledging the downbeats of each measure where emphasized by stroking on the beats or including arm and body and head movements on the beats, and also perhaps upbeats or lesser stresses.

Then acknowledging little details where the music is doing something specific in this measure that it's not doing in all the other measures. E.g., holding out or delaying or anticipating a note, or counting in threes instead of twos (triplets), dotted rhythms, etc. Is the skater doing something with some part of the body to show that she hears and is using those specific details?

I appreciate your post. It is very enlightening!! I do see Lu Chen in a different light. I have felt she has something different. The choreography captures musicality and full of nuances, but I sense it is her innate musicality that she can be so in-tune as well as spontaneous and free.
 

MaiKatze

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 4, 2012

You can't just stop there. The SP of 2011/2012, In the Garden of Souls, must be mentioned, too. Cyber Swan, Eye and Mambo!

I think the way an audience freaks out for elements that are non-jumps is a good inclination, as well. And they do freak out for everything Takahashi! Aren't we all Pasquale Camerlengo and Utako Nagamitsu, hitting the boards? Yes. This was 6 years ago. And then you see a PCS score of 85.78! Travesty to think this is the same system still being used today. Daisuke, forever undermarked. But I don't care. I will rewatch these programs forever. *cough* Sorry for that.
 

Izabela

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Thank you guys for your responses I really can’t reply to everyone but I’m writing down the name of the skaters you all mentioned to watch. It’s nice that this thread remained civil.

gkelly mentioned about nuances though and I would like to know if skaters do stuff prior to understand the music they skate to other than learning the choreography. I know David Wilson said before that for Les Miserables, Yuna had watched the movie around 100 times to understand what the story is about.(Probably exaggerating there too lol)

Are there any other instances from skaters that have done the same thing or similar stuff to prepare themselves “musically” or at least to know how to interpret the song they skate to? I can think of maybe Yuzuru doing it too. (It’s also probably a Brian Orser influence since he’s the one who really underlined the importance of having a program where elements are seamlessly integrated to their choreography).
 

cruzceleste

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Thank you guys for your responses I really can’t reply to everyone but I’m writing down the name of the skaters you all mentioned to watch. It’s nice that this thread remained civil.

gkelly mentioned about nuances though and I would like to know if skaters do stuff prior to understand the music they skate to other than learning the choreography. I know David Wilson said before that for Les Miserables, Yuna had watched the movie around 100 times to understand what the story is about.(Probably exaggerating there too lol)

Are there any other instances from skaters that have done the same thing or similar stuff to prepare themselves “musically” or at least to know how to interpret the song they skate to? I can think of maybe Yuzuru doing it too. (It’s also probably a Brian Orser influence since he’s the one who really underlined the importance of having a program where elements are seamlessly integrated to their choreography).

Well if you want to see information about how to create a program, Yuzuru´s Semei has being covered a lot:
Yuzuru participated in the editing of the music, even made an edit on his own http://nanoka12.tumblr.com/post/136624269761/32-versions-of-seimei
He reunited with the actor from Onmyōji (film) from where his movies came from,so he got tips part 1 and part 2
And here PJ Kwong talks with Shae Lynn about the program
Video on the process of the design of the program from choreography to costume
 

Izabela

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Well if you want to see information about how to create a program, Yuzuru´s Semei has being covered a lot:
Yuzuru participated in the editing of the music, even made an edit on his own http://nanoka12.tumblr.com/post/136624269761/32-versions-of-seimei
He reunited with the actor from Onmyōji (film) from where his movies came from,so he got tips part 1 and part 2
And here PJ Kwong talks with Shae Lynn about the program
Video on the process of the design of the program from choreography to costume

Thank you! This is so cool.
 

Lester

Piper and Paul are made of magic dust and unicorns
Final Flight
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Is dancing to hip hop and such stuff something most skaters nowadays do?

To be honest, after watching all of the clips, I think only Virtue and Moir don't look terribly out of their depth when doing hip hop (Tessa posted a video like a season or two ago I think).
 

Izabela

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Is dancing to hip hop and such stuff something most skaters nowadays do?

To be honest, after watching all of the clips, I think only Virtue and Moir don't look terribly out of their depth when doing hip hop (Tessa posted a video like a season or two ago I think).

Didn’t Yuzu also learn to dance hip hop to get a sense of rhythm?

Also have to agree with the 0 to Daisuke scale there. Such a phenom.

And when he and Mao skated together, it’s glorious.

https://youtu.be/-iePqAEF1Eo
 

elbkup

Power without conscience is a savage weapon
Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Country
United-States
You can't just stop there. The SP of 2011/2012, In the Garden of Souls, must be mentioned, too. Cyber Swan, Eye and Mambo!

I think the way an audience freaks out for elements that are non-jumps is a good inclination, as well. And they do freak out for everything Takahashi! Aren't we all Pasquale Camerlengo and Utako Nagamitsu, hitting the boards? Yes. This was 6 years ago. And then you see a PCS score of 85.78! Travesty to think this is the same system still being used today. Daisuke, forever undermarked. But I don't care. I will rewatch these programs forever. *cough* Sorry for that.

:biggrin: not my intention to give Takahashi short shrift.. everything he dId (and does) is musical and dance worthy but I did post my favorite !! :laugh: he is the best.. I felt he belonged to a bygone Era until I saw Alena..
EDT. Garden of Souls is right up there on my list too.. Dai's choreographers were lucky to have him and he was lucky to have them!!
 

Yoa

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 4, 2017
Well if you want to see information about how to create a program, Yuzuru´s Semei has being covered a lot:
Yuzuru participated in the editing of the music, even made an edit on his own http://nanoka12.tumblr.com/post/136624269761/32-versions-of-seimei
He reunited with the actor from Onmyōji (film) from where his movies came from,so he got tips part 1 and part 2
And here PJ Kwong talks with Shae Lynn about the program
Video on the process of the design of the program from choreography to costume

Thank you guys for your responses I really can’t reply to everyone but I’m writing down the name of the skaters you all mentioned to watch. It’s nice that this thread remained civil.

gkelly mentioned about nuances though and I would like to know if skaters do stuff prior to understand the music they skate to other than learning the choreography. I know David Wilson said before that for Les Miserables, Yuna had watched the movie around 100 times to understand what the story is about.(Probably exaggerating there too lol)

Are there any other instances from skaters that have done the same thing or similar stuff to prepare themselves “musically” or at least to know how to interpret the song they skate to? I can think of maybe Yuzuru doing it too. (It’s also probably a Brian Orser influence since he’s the one who really underlined the importance of having a program where elements are seamlessly integrated to their choreography).

I don't think it's only Brian's influence. It's also Yuzuru being Yuzuru and Yuna being Yuna :p

A little more about creating Seimei :)
Compilation of videos about Seimei with English subs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4phoKS2IL98&t=823s
Here Yuzuru talks about Seimei music and how elements should fit the music: https://youtu.be/KhKvqS5gOq4?t=28m21s


Conversation with a pianist Kanon Matsuda about Chopin's ballade, stories in music etc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCpblJDoF6E

He also talked a lot about music and choreography with Kenji Miyamoto in Kenji no Heya. There is a video available with English subs but I can't really link it here. They talked about interpreting music without words or not representing any character. Or how you shouldn't do spins like back scratch spin to a song about flowers (hana ni nare) because it looks like flower is shrinking instead of blooming.

And Yuzuru has obsession with earphones because with good quality earphones you can hear sounds and details in music you normally don't hear. https://youtu.be/HLs5Iosoc5I?t=2m32s
 
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