How Do We Measure Musicality in FS? | Page 4 | Golden Skate

How Do We Measure Musicality in FS?

Latremu

Final Flight
Joined
May 8, 2017
Funny, it is, opinions are to be respected.

Your opinion is that Yuzuru is not musical, a lot of the commentors in tv from the Olympics don´t agree with you... by example:

New York Times

It´s ok to have different opinions...
Exactly! IT'S OKAY TO HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS. [emoji16] Any more for irony? Of course, there is something objective in musicality as well. Simply, someone moves to the beat, or the rise and fall, of the music. It's about movement to tempo and dynamics. Notes are respected, hand and foot movements change to a difference in the music, spin positions switch with musical emphasis.

Of course, those who are tone deaf or just not musical themselves and cannot recognize these intricacies in the music, will then be unable to recognize nor appreciate musicality in the skaters themselves. In that case, argument is futile. [emoji4]
 

Latremu

Final Flight
Joined
May 8, 2017
For me, musicality is simply the awareness of and sensitivity to a piece of music - its style, construction, dynamics, phrasing, rhythms, and emotional tone, for lack of a better word.

A performer is able to express their response to music so that others can perceive it. So for me, a singer or other musician, a dancer, or a skater is musical when they appear to be listening to, and responding to, changes in their music.

I think that if you’re not musical yourself, you’ll have a hard time judging else someone’s musicality; if you are musical, you’ll judge a performer’s musicality based first of all on your own response to the music - that is, if you respond strongly to a particular phrase or dynamic that the skater ignores or responds to differently than you do, you likely won’t think much of their musicality.

I would say that a good choreographer will set movement to music in a way that somehow expresses and clarifies their own response to the music. A really musical skater or dancer will not only perform the choreography but will deepen it
Oh, I didn't see your response. I agree with this. I essentially repeated it, sorry.
 

charlotte14

Medalist
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Shoma times his strokes with the music and changes his speed with the change of tempo, changes his spins positions and places his jumps or transitions on the beats, actually starts and finishes his moves following the phrasing of the music and is always 100% committed to his music, the mood and the texture of it. The emotional commitment he has to it certainly comes from his own understanding and processing of the music and it has been evident during his all career even when he was a junior.
I understand you have no interest in Shoma's skating other than bashing every single part of it but don't pretend you're talking about musicality when your best example for it is Hanyu whose commitment to his music varies greatly.

no transition, i think in the current pairs Sui/Han are incredibly musical and quite often to a fault since they actually lose levels to not be off their music.
In my opinion, Uno is one color in his skating and interpretation of his music. That’s my personal take. I didn’t say he isn’t musical. But one color. And of course I do know the music he skates to, even studies them when I was in college, just saying. And or course he can or can not improve it depends on his coaches, since it seems to me he follows everything his coaches tell him to do choreographywise or musicwise. Note that most skaters do that anyway. But personally I would want to see more personality in what they show. Is that enough?
 

daphenaxa

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 17, 2015
And of course I do know the music he skates to, even studies them when I was in college, just saying.

ok Horowitz.

And or course he can or can not improve it depends on his coaches, since it seems to me he follows everything his coaches tell him to do choreographywise or musicwise.

That's certainly not what people that have actually worked with him say but hey i'm sure you know better. You probably studied that at school too.
 

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
For me, musicality is simply the awareness of and sensitivity to a piece of music - its style, construction, dynamics, phrasing, rhythms, and emotional tone, for lack of a better word.

A performer is able to express their response to music so that others can perceive it. So for me, a singer or other musician, a dancer, or a skater is musical when they appear to be listening to, and responding to, changes in their music.

I think that if you’re not musical yourself, you’ll have a hard time judging else someone’s musicality; if you are musical, you’ll judge a performer’s musicality based first of all on your own response to the music - that is, if you respond strongly to a particular phrase or dynamic that the skater ignores or responds to differently than you do, you likely won’t think much of their musicality.

I would say that a good choreographer will set movement to music in a way that somehow expresses and clarifies their own response to the music. A really musical skater or dancer will not only perform the choreography but will deepen it

This! There are a lot of skaters who interpreted music well and depending on the program for me a skater may seem very musical in one program and not so much in another.

I find Yuzu Exhibition programs much more musical than his competitive programs.

Jason and Shoma are at the top of my list for musicality in their competitive programs.

Special mention to my all time favorite skater Daisuke Takahashi! :love:
 

cruzceleste

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
The women of Japan have had always excellent musicality, aren´t they?

Kanako
Akiko
Mao
Shizuka
Satoko
And I must I was really impressed with Kaori

Question: do you think that the music used by the skater could affect your perception of say so skater musicality?

By example if you don´t like a piece I have a really hard time connecting with the program
 

steiner

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
For me, musicality is simply the awareness of and sensitivity to a piece of music - its style, construction, dynamics, phrasing, rhythms, and emotional tone, for lack of a better word.

A performer is able to express their response to music so that others can perceive it. So for me, a singer or other musician, a dancer, or a skater is musical when they appear to be listening to, and responding to, changes in their music.

I think that if you’re not musical yourself, you’ll have a hard time judging else someone’s musicality; if you are musical, you’ll judge a performer’s musicality based first of all on your own response to the music - that is, if you respond strongly to a particular phrase or dynamic that the skater ignores or responds to differently than you do, you likely won’t think much of their musicality.

I would say that a good choreographer will set movement to music in a way that somehow expresses and clarifies their own response to the music. A really musical skater or dancer will not only perform the choreography but will deepen it
You said it better than I ever could.
 

Arriba627

TWO-TIME WORLD CHAMPION 🔥
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 2, 2014
Country
United-States
And or course he can or can not improve it depends on his coaches, since it seems to me he follows everything his coaches tell him to do choreographywise or musicwise. Note that most skaters do that anyway. But personally I would want to see more personality in what they show. Is that enough?

What you are saying here about Shoma is exactly how he DOESN'T work. Stephane Lambiel explained what it is like to work with him. You can't just say "Here, do this. Do this" He is a much more intuitive skater who feels the music. https://youtu.be/P-mKl8_iu-k?t=283
 

lappo

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 12, 2016
The women of Japan have had always excellent musicality, aren´t they?

Kanako
Akiko
Mao
Shizuka
Satoko
And I must I was really impressed with Kaori

Question: do you think that the music used by the skater could affect your perception of say so skater musicality?

By example if you don´t like a piece I have a really hard time connecting with the program

Not in my case; in fact if I don't particularly like a piece of music but the skater perform it in the proper way he/she has the power to make me change my mind. Case in point, Blues for Klook: i disliked the piece of music but Daisuke skated it so well that now I don't even mind anymore (also, S/H did an incredible job with it as well last year).
 

RedDress

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
I think you know it when you see it. It's like great dancers as opposed to great technicians. It's having that sensitive connection with the music that can take you as the performer onto a more exacting level of interpretation simply by having the music rather than the elements dictate your movement. It's when you are so drawn to the piece that when a difficult element is performed it's part of the overall feeling, rather than moments that must be telegraphed by skating strokes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COJWW12GEIk
 

cruzceleste

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Not in my case; in fact if I don't particularly like a piece of music but the skater perform it in the proper way he/she has the power to make me change my mind. Case in point, Blues for Klook: i disliked the piece of music but Daisuke skated it so well that know I don't even mind anymore (also, S/H did an incredible job with it as well last year).

Thank you
 

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Kurt Browning can explain this better than anyone, but it's easy to tell if a skater is really listening to the music or just skating while some music is playing. Of course, in ice dance you have to listen to the beat of the music. It's the same with the single skaters. If you watch a skater like Carolina Kostner she is listening to the music, she's interpreting the music and every step, edge and flow has to do with the music. The same of course for the maestro Kurt Browning! Sometimes it's just the wrong music and the skater has to do his/her best with what is chosen perhaps by their coach. The amazing Toller Cranston used to tell skaters it helped if the music means something to the skater.

Here is a real example of musicality - Oksana Baiul - 1994 Lillehammer Olympic - Exhibition - The Swan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kLH9oRQcLc
 

rikaquegira

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 30, 2017

YASSS!
Perfect example.
There's the thread "is Patrick Chan the best pure skater ever?" there should be a "Is Yuna Kim the best musical figure skater ever?". Of course we'd have to get our popcorn for that.
:popcorn:
I haven't been watching figure skating since forever so I'm sure there are other great musical skaters perhaps even more so than Yuna.

With that said, I think "measuring" how musical a performance is is not complicated. You just have to listen to the music and see if the skater is expressing the music in every step, jump, spin, hand movement, every arm movement, everything should be in harmony with the music, even crossovers should be musical(yes, crossovers can be musical). It should also have a concept throughout. For instance, in the Lark Ascending you can clearly see the correlation between the choreography and the theme of that piece, a bird. And the whole mood of the program is the same of the music. You should also acknowlegde the changes of the music.
And of course being on the music tempo is basic.
So, if a skater manages to have all that in their performance to me that's skating with the music.
Otherwise it's just background noise.
 

Izabela

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2018

This is actually one of my fave of her. Also one of the best Wilson cheoreography along with Homage to Korea. I was actually suprised for a 16 (17?) year old to be able to capture the “tone” of this music as clearly as her.

I’m also marathoning Kurt Browning’s programs as y’all are recommending him and goodness now I completely understand why veterans miss the good old skating days.
I still can’t stop laughing at his Rag-Gidon Time.
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
YASSS!
Perfect example.

I think this one and Mao's 2014 Chopin SP are seminal examples of musicality.

I think I haven't seen anyone with a better feel for music than Yuna. Daisuke Takahashi, Mao Asada, Yuzuru Hanyu, Virtue/Moir, and Sui/Han also come to mind. It's not just about doing steps to the music; it's also about modifying their movement in accordance with the music. In Adios Nonino, Yuna brings a beautiful, almost tense (and yet effortless) movement to her skating. In El Tango de Roxanne, she brings power and energy.
 

Rina RUS

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 27, 2016
Country
Russia
For me musicality is Yagudin :luv17:

That is what I love about his skating: his musicality and his energy.
Most of the skaters try to move to music, but Yagudin can be so relaxed, that music carries him.

Do we need to mesure musicality? I think musical choreography is important, and as for a skater - one needs to hear the music and to be able to be ralaxed.

here are some wonderful videos with different music :luv17:

Feelings - 2003
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFveY-jd1vE

Burn my shadow - 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Neb1MKnJo&t=27s

Libertango - 2012
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PD16bZME9k

Oblivion - 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nua_BkvmHM0&t=25s

Yello (Squeeze please) - 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGHPTmY7ds8

"ALICE": The Mad Hatter - 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V0UMJwZdaY

Friendly among foes - 2017
very beautiful music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfJPcscvXDU&t=45s
 

lappo

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 12, 2016
I think this one and Mao's 2014 Chopin SP are seminal examples of musicality.

I think I haven't seen anyone with a better feel for music than Yuna. Daisuke Takahashi, Mao Asada, Yuzuru Hanyu, Virtue/Moir, and Sui/Han also come to mind. It's not just about doing steps to the music; it's also about modifying their movement in accordance with the music. In Adios Nonino, Yuna brings a beautiful, almost tense (and yet effortless) movement to her skating. In El Tango de Roxanne, she brings power and energy.

As your list shows, it is perhaps not coincidental that musical skaters are also the more versatile ones, as each of them displayed a great (or even exceptional in some cases) variety in the choice of music and programs and performed to all of them in a very convincing way.
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
It is perhaps not coincidental that musical skaters are also the more versatile ones

It's not. Without adaptability, there is no musicality. We can't call a skater who performs to The Firebird and then La Strada in the same way with the same movement "musical".
 
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