How Do We Measure Musicality in FS? | Page 6 | Golden Skate

How Do We Measure Musicality in FS?

Tavi...

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
For any given skater, will they be able to show better musicality in contexts where they don't need to push their technical content to the max? He, exhibitions and show numbers tend to be more musical than competition programs. So if we're going to compare skaters to each other, it's only fair to compare like to like in terms of type of program.

I think it depends.

Since there are fewer elements in an exhibition and none are required, I’d guess a choreographer has more freedom in choosing them and placing them ideally, which could make it easier for a skater to relax into the music and focus on expression.

But based purely on my own experience as a singer, a huge factor in how well you express music is how much you love it and look forward to performing it. Basically, the more deeply you respond to it, the easier it is to communicate that to an audience. I think that’s probably also true for skaters.
 

cruzceleste

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Hey, very interesting thread! It was really interesting to read each opinion and how it varied according to each one's favorites :laugh:
Now, I've been trained professionally in music, so I wanted to actually give something to this conversation. I've had enough time to munch over my answer, so forewarning: long post ahead! With plenty of examples you may or may not agree with! :laugh: I hope it isn't that boring!

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Well, this is getting too long now, so I'll stop here. I mean, at this point I was just gushing about my faves... I hope I made a bit of sense at least :D

Thank you for taking the time, this post really good and illustrative :thumbsup:
 

Izabela

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
So, choreography. What makes a choreography good?
One of the best voted posts in this discussion is this one:

...in a nutshell, yes. That sequence is incredibly well choreographed, all of it. But I especially appreciate those little three crosrolls (around 2:43 in that same video) which are maybe the easier part of all the program and are incredibly elegant and on touch with the music, and allow the viewer to breathe. Seimei is a very well-thought program because it allows Yuzuru to stop with the music, step with the music, jump with the music... and it doesn't hinder the program. And he interprets it beautifully.
A choreography needs to play the skater strengths. They can be very expressive in the upper body, have beautiful skating skills, be very flexible, charismatic, funny, sensual, or they can have nice signature movements they want to show off. Or they can have enough stamina to put difficult jumps in the second half. For example, you shouldn't put a very mature program to a kid, because it'll be kind of awkward for everyone involved.
One example of a skater who has been improving a lot with his musicality is Boyang Jim. I think he's a fun-oriented skater, and that's more than fine with me. In this step sequence (WC 2017, FS) if we compare it with Yuzuru's, it's obvious he's not going with the beat of the music -- he's, however, trying with his upper part of the body and reconnects in time to the spin, which is good. Connecting steps are more often than not off-beat, sadly.
If you ask me (probably not if you ask the rest of figure skatings fans out there, though) I wouldn't put Yuzuru at the top of "musicality in lyrical male skaters", though. He has musicality, soul, and sense of rhythm, that's undeniable (and in Note Stellata you can almost even touch it) but there are skaters who manage to imprint each one of the steps with music, and Yuzu's not quite there -- he's helped by incredible choreographies, though. I'm speaking about Daisuke and about Tatsuki Machida. I linked his 2014 SP in WC, probably my favorite. He just follows the mood of the music so well (2:42) and has such nice flow...

Thank you for pointing this out. I actually agree with you regarding Yuzuru Hanyu. I thoroughly enjoyed his Seimei and I can feel the flow of the music from him. But this is where I mentioned earlier that for me his "musicality" is not always there. He does have a musical rhythm but I think his musicality is not "innate" but rather learned. This is not to put it against him of course, but to show that if skaters want to invest their time in improving their musicality, they can do so. For example, his much celebrated Hope and Legacy lacks "musicality" for me. As a Ghibli fan, I am familiar with the music but no matter how many times I've watched his program, everytime I listen to the music I still can't imagine his movements. This is why I find it so cool for him (and I do hope we see that level of commitment from anyone) about his process to complete Seimei. And to have a choreographer you can work with that is as involved as you in the process.

Now onto an (I think) interesting comparison between one of the best crafted FS I've seen this last two seasons, which is Adam Rippon's. The location of the jumps is absolutely marvelous, especially this particular moment. I think it represents exactly what I mean with anticipation. Now the funny thing is, he places the convo in slightly different moments in different competitions. My personal favorite is the first one I linked. The second one still works but adds a different view. The third one is off-place. Can you see/hear/feel the difference?
Adam Rippon has very good musicality. He's not the best skater in terms of technique, but he's expressive and adds a deep of interpretation that I can really value. He's moving. If you compare the three performances I linked and think also about his Olympic Performance then you have a nice example of what's musicality in a good performance and how the choreography helps. The first jump, for example, works much better being a quadruple -- the music is asking for a big jump, and a double axel doesn't quite make the cut. The second part of the program starts by a noise -- birds, and then the first chord of Coldplay's O, Eb with a ninth chord (which gives off that melancholic feeling from the start). And in my favorite "musical" performance of Adam's, he lands the first combination on the first Bb/D chord (the second one), which is the one that gives the tonality. The one that feels "homey", as we'd say. He also jumps on "hovering above" (wink, wink).
Yes, that's the kind of nuances I get fixated on. Don't get me started on spins.

There are beautifully choreographed programs that are not skated to their full potential. I'm going to add a "yet" here. Now, I don't have anything against the so-called and so-feared backloaded programs. Mostly because they let you see the skaters' performance skills before the most dynamic moves. And also because the climax in most music is usually around 2/3 of the piece, so actually it's front-loaded programs the ones that feel the most unnatural, for me. That being said, doing a backloaded program it's fireproof for the skater's ability of performance, and not many can pull it off, since if it bores you then you know it's not well balanced... or well interpreted. Here I think every movement could be extended quite a bit more, there's not quite enough anticipation. She's actually hitting the beat quite well at the start, more or less till 0:41, then it's just that teeny bit messy... Well, there'll be quite a lot of time to improve.
But compare it with this (the maturity of the movement, the "there's no rush" feeling all over it), or, even this. That last one, from Yulia's Autumn Leaves, is everything I want from a lyrical program. A well-choreographed step here and there does wonders. And the extension of the arms does wonders. Both Yulia and Yuna know what to do with their hands, and it makes a enormous difference. But let me gush a bit more with Autumn Leaves, please. A lot has been said about Yulia's spins, I'm not going to add anything original here. But she changes positions on beat, and she changes the tempo with the music. Look at her head, her neck, her lines. It's a beautiful program...

I've put until now in this post mostly lyrical programs. It's "easier" to feel musicality in this ones, at least the deep-in-your-bones-kind. Doing funny programs some skaters wink a bit or pull their suspenders and call it a day, and well, it's more than that. Some of these programs end up being kind of my guilty pleasures (hey, but look at the "spread it like"), LOL. Adam Rippon's SP kind of ended that way for me as well.
And I couldn't end this paragraph with this another favorite of mine. I don't think I've seen anyone pull rock&roll like he did here :D

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Well, this is getting too long now, so I'll stop here. I mean, at this point I was just gushing about my faves... I hope I made a bit of sense at least :D

This is a great compilation of programs and thank you for comparing different programs like this. I also see your point about backloading and how it necessarily doesn't mean it's bad. I mean, I also didn't initially like the linearity of programs before (like how we normally structure a story, from introduction to climax), and appreciate it when skaters do footwork in between jumps, when they disrupt the linearity of storytelling and makes everything so exciting to watch (also why I appreciate post-Vancouver Yuna way more).

On the other hand, I think it's a poor reason to say for example how the choreography has to suffer because we want to include jumps here and not there.
 

yyyskate

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2013
YuliaLip has musicality?????

just my 2 cents, use lady skater to measure musicality: from Yulia 0 to Yuna 10
 

zschultz1986

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Honestly, these are (some of) the ones that people should look at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1imuQWeIi4Q (Michelle's Romanza)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWCPE_Tw4LE (Sasha 2004 SP, Malaguena)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYv170n84Tw (Buttle 2005 LP, Nagoygatsi)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hJx65KiuDc (Matt Savoie's 2006 LP, The Mission)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE1_0xd9A4k (Lambiel 2007/2008 LP, Poeta)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTCAsSGgFWc (Yuna 2007 SP, Tango De Roxanne)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vJFdEfGk3w (Buttle 2008 LP, Ararat)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVasw3hP3Rw (Yuna 2009 SP, Danse Macabre)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQm4Ge4uzmA (Jeremy Abbott 2014 LP, Exogenesis)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm9F-lSuArQ&t=257s (Mao 2014 SP, Nocturne)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjEoBfmn1SU (Mao 2014 LP, Rach)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1cOMqPaXYw (Yuzu 2015, 2018 LP, Seimei)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWM1aFmq5HY (Jason Brown 2016, The Scent of Love) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXjNKEK0x8Q (Worlds 2017)

The musicality of these programs are top notch. They are different, yet all share some specifics: The choreography looks as though it is coming straight from the music, as if it is being choreographed right there in front of you. This requires the skater to be right "on song", as it is called, and for the skater to be committed to the movement. The great artists and programs make you forget its a competition, and you just enjoy the program.
 

lappo

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 12, 2016
@zschultz1086: totally OT but you basically are my skating soulmate (except for the absence of Takahashi from this "all time glorious" list).
 

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Olympics
Honestly, these are (some of) the ones that people should look at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1imuQWeIi4Q (Michelle's Romanza)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWCPE_Tw4LE (Sasha 2004 SP, Malaguena)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYv170n84Tw (Buttle 2005 LP, Nagoygatsi)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hJx65KiuDc (Matt Savoie's 2006 LP, The Mission)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE1_0xd9A4k (Lambiel 2007/2008 LP, Poeta)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTCAsSGgFWc (Yuna 2007 SP, Tango De Roxanne)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vJFdEfGk3w (Buttle 2008 LP, Ararat)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVasw3hP3Rw (Yuna 2009 SP, Danse Macabre)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQm4Ge4uzmA (Jeremy Abbott 2014 LP, Exogenesis)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm9F-lSuArQ&t=257s (Mao 2014 SP, Nocturne)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjEoBfmn1SU (Mao 2014 LP, Rach)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1cOMqPaXYw (Yuzu 2015, 2018 LP, Seimei)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWM1aFmq5HY (Jason Brown 2016, The Scent of Love) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXjNKEK0x8Q (Worlds 2017)

The musicality of these programs are top notch. They are different, yet all share some specifics: The choreography looks as though it is coming straight from the music, as if it is being choreographed right there in front of you. This requires the skater to be right "on song", as it is called, and for the skater to be committed to the movement. The great artists and programs make you forget its a competition, and you just enjoy the program.

I’ll stand by my claims that the 2012 version of Abbott’s Exogenesis was the better version. It allowed for more choreographic freedom and nuances. ;)
 

zschultz1986

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
@zschultz1086: totally OT but you basically are my skating soulmate (except for the absence of Takahashi from this "all time glorious" list).

Takahashi is great. I have to rewatch some of his programs, though, as I was a fan, but not a major fan during his time.
 

Xen

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
-Whole Post-

Absolutely effin' brilliant. :thumbsup:
And wonderful explanation with good illustrations of programs (and why post Yuna, I can't see anyone else do Send in the Clowns).
Curious for your take on this:
Seimei Step Sequence 1.0 (https://youtu.be/EhU_5Y7x9PM) versus the one you linked. Which one do you think has a better fit to the music actually, if rules were not an issue?

As for music, I'm curious if you think there are music types that are harder to skate to? For example, Krylova and Ovsyannakov's 1999 FD (https://youtu.be/V63AV_NDee4). One thing I've personally always wanted to see more men's single skater do a program to Taiko drumming, but would that be too hard? Currently I'm only aware of Brezina's interpretation to it recently, and it's SP. Then there was Stojko in 1998 also SP, but it's super rare. Would LP be even possible? Or would the pacing be too insane? Personally I'm thinking boyang or Yuzuru could take a stab at it, but would love your opinion on it. =)
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
If you ask me (probably not if you ask the rest of figure skatings fans out there, though) I wouldn't put Yuzuru at the top of "musicality in lyrical male skaters", though. He has musicality, soul, and sense of rhythm, that's undeniable (and in Note Stellata you can almost even touch it)

:yes: :agree:

And agree with your examples for those, too! I would also add Yuzuru's extreme commitment to executing his choreography perfectly as a reason why he manages to be very musical in his routines, but really the only transcendental example of his musicality that immediately comes to mind is his most recent performance of his SP (at the Olys).

but there are skaters who manage to imprint each one of the steps with music

It is also why I think the most musical ones show a great sense of range. There are several who show great musicality within routines (and I'd say they are musical in their interpretation of those routines), but the best of the best are perhaps able to completely embody any music they skate to.

I think playing to strengths is a good thing, but it would be odd if someone who perhaps couldn't "get the tone" of a different piece of music (not necessarily perfectly, but also shouldn't be in a way that doesn't gel well with the music) were called musical in the same way as someone who shows great range does.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
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Dec 29, 2013
Country
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There are beautifully choreographed programs that are not skated to their full potential. I'm going to add a "yet" here. Now, I don't have anything against the so-called and so-feared backloaded programs. Mostly because they let you see the skaters' performance skills before the most dynamic moves. And also because the climax in most music is usually around 2/3 of the piece, so actually it's front-loaded programs the ones that feel the most unnatural, for me. That being said, doing a backloaded program it's fireproof for the skater's ability of performance, and not many can pull it off, since if it bores you then you know it's not well balanced... or well interpreted. Here I think every movement could be extended quite a bit more, there's not quite enough anticipation. She's actually hitting the beat quite well at the start, more or less till 0:41, then it's just that teeny bit messy... Well, there'll be quite a lot of time to improve.
But compare it with this (the maturity of the movement, the "there's no rush" feeling all over it), or, even this. That last one, from Yulia's Autumn Leaves, is everything I want from a lyrical program. A well-choreographed step here and there does wonders. And the extension of the arms does wonders. Both Yulia and Yuna know what to do with their hands, and it makes a enormous difference. But let me gush a bit more with Autumn Leaves, please. A lot has been said about Yulia's spins, I'm not going to add anything original here. But she changes positions on beat, and she changes the tempo with the music. Look at her head, her neck, her lines. It's a beautiful program...

I’ve avoided this thread because I’ve spent almost my entire life as a musician who writes and performs original music and has gotten increasingly further and further away from playing music that was written by others. I’ve spent all of my middle and high school and part of my college years involved with orchestral programs. It was here that I learned and formed most of my musical beliefs and principals. Giant full orchestral and some quartet stuff. The thing is some of the most musically gifted people I’ve ever performed with have some of the most rigid abilities and lack almost all ability to be creative and can be some of the hardest people to write music with. How can this be? They have musicality but no originality. My cousin is like this and when we get together to write music casually he refuses to write the songs because he finds himself boxed into music theory and prefers when I write music that breaks certain rules he can’t bring himself to do. He’ll always say things like “I can’t believe you put that Cm there”...I’d never allow myself to do something like that”. To me it’s not even a Cm....it just sounds right and I may not even know what chord or note it is on that particular instrument.

Anyway...my point is that musicality is so tough to define and there are very few skaters who don’t have it although it’s possible it doesn’t line up with some fan’s who have a more narrow feel for musicality. Sometimes the one listening or making the assessment is so bound by their own boxed in perception that they are unable to see musicality that is perfectly noticable to others. You mentioned Autumn leaves which I agree with but I’d like to use an example to try to pinpoint and hopefully make sense of a difficult concept. Yulia’s musicality is a rare bird and not easily spotted by some so it makes for a fascinating discussion. For instance..when you watch that step sequence you’ve linked several things jump out but what’s most intriguing to me is how she uses the more hidden musical structures to bring out her choreographic movements. It’s easy to miss.

It’s difficult to put into words but I’ll try my best. Thinking in terms of bars of 4/4 I’m going to say at ~2:15 when the musical structure begins she drops her arms down and we’ll signify this as the beginning of the bar for the sake of this discussion. So what you’ll notice is that she doesn’t choose the obvious piano solo during this part to shape her movements. She instead finds a more layered dimension that isn’t on where most people look. It’s the backing jazz guitar chords that hit in the much less obvious spots. Not on the 2’s and 4’s as is much easier to understand. So if you were counting it the accent she chooses to bring out her choreographic movements would be the bolded parts like this.
1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4
1
-2-3-4 1-2-3-4
1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4
1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 1.

It’s actually really interesting to me and reminds me of independence drills drummers do where they tap a 4/4 rhythm with the left foot but free a limb (arm or leg) to break free of the expected cycle of accents. The number one cause of drummer face ;)

Here is the movement with a few seconds of lead in. Try to block out the piano solo and find the jazz guitar chords on the accents I’ve pointed out. That’s her musicality over this particular section. Jazz music man...it’s deep :)
https://youtu.be/7P0C5OD4DZs?t=2m09s

What I find really interesting about using these specific movements for this discussion is the impact the placement of them has in general. It isn’t always going to be the specific movement that best portrays musicality. Sometimes you need to feel from 1:52 up to beyond 2:20 to fully comprehend why 2:18 is a brilliant expression. Without the feeling you get from the cycles of 4/4 bars building up to that slight pause where she kind of breathes and pushes her hand out while gliding it’s very difficult to appreciate why that little hold 2:18 means anything at all. Once you start realizing that the little breath is hitting those jazz chords and not following the more obvious piano lead it’s easier to notice that she later lifts her leg into a mini spiral using the same musical construct which she uses to convey her interpretation of this particular section of the song. Its also interesting the way the program floats for a few bars back into a well timed 2a that moves the accent to a 3-4 and then a 1 which is sort of what her movements hinted at during the whole lead up to the jump.

I really like to discuss her musicality because to someone who played a lot of cello and rythym guitar and even the bass I tend to be drawn into those rhythmic movements. The ones that are often felt and not heard. People often don’t hum or whistle these parts but they are just as important and present real challenges even to some of the most experienced musicians. One of the most powerful things a musician can do is to take a rest and be perfectly silent....at the right time. Whether or not it’s the right time....no one gets to decide that :)

I hope this makes sense. It’s very hard to discuss rythyms and accents. I’d love to tap my my left foot for you all and show you how my right foot and both arms can operate completely independent of each other to create interesting sounds. Unfortunately on this board I’m limited to words which I’m admittedly not the best at using effectively :eek::
 

lyverbird1

Final Flight
Joined
Apr 18, 2015
I think someone may have already mentioned this, but I occasionally watch skating clips with it being necessary to have the volume either completely down or very low. If the skater makes me hear their music in my head by their skating, I find that to be a beautiful gauge as to how musical they are. It's so telling with a skater going through the motions that the thinking is "Put arms and a bit of footwork in here sort of matching the music and then stop to concentrate on setting up the next jump".
 

synteis

Medalist
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
Following up something that Mussique said, that anticipation in the skaters is so important. My mother has much more training in musicality than I do and has done a lot of choral work where singing at the right moment is incredibly important. The way she articulates this is that the skaters should be humming along to the music inside their head so that they react in anticipation of the music in the stadium. This allows them to react in time to the music. If instead they react when they hear the music in the stadium it has the effect of putting them forever behind it. For skaters of course this is a large challenge because they also need to control small movements across the ice to a very fine degree which is why some skaters have on beat upper body movements but a great many of even the best struggle to do the same with their lower body.
 

Crossover

All Hail the Queen
Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2014
YuliaLip has musicality?????

I would't say she has zero musicality because she is much more interesting to watch compared with Zagitova and Medvedeva. Yulia has musicality and can draw people in with her storytelling and incredibly unbelievable flexibility. She can also deliver a story to make at least her fans want to watch more. I miss her competitive days. :)
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Hypothetically,

Skater A strokes on the beat throuought the program, times the jumps and big movements with musical accents or highlights, skates exactly on the beat throughout step sequences, with some surprising highlights reflecting details of the music, times arm movements and changes of foot or position in spins with the musical phrasing, etc, but shows hardly any facial expression and uses limited upper body movement.

Skater B is very emotionally expressive to the overall feel and mood of the music, uses the face and whole body to engage with the audience, but doesn't phrase or time the movement directly to the music at all, often starting an element in the middle of a musical phrase or vice versa, etc.

Who is more musical?
 

Izabela

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Hypothetically,

Skater A strokes on the beat throuought the program, times the jumps and big movements with musical accents or highlights, skates exactly on the beat throughout step sequences, with some surprising highlights reflecting details of the music, times arm movements and changes of foot or position in spins with the musical phrasing, etc, but shows hardly any facial expression and uses limited upper body movement.

Skater B is very emotionally expressive to the overall feel and mood of the music, uses the face and whole body to engage with the audience, but doesn't phrase or time the movement directly to the music at all, often starting an element in the middle of a musical phrase or vice versa, etc.

Who is more musical?

The perfect skater in terms of musicality, for me, is someone who has both: musical timing/rhythm who also expresses the overall mood of the music/uses the whole body. But to choose between the two I will go for Skater A. The face is hardly the first thing I check when watching figure skating. This sport is still about figures, and movements, and how their bodies can draw the music that they skate to. That’s how I understood figure skating for a long time now. And there is always something to be said about a skater who respects the music he/she skates to by tying the elements to the music.

Maybe this is why I fell in love to skaters with great skating skills like Mao, Daisuke and Patrick when I first came in to the sport. Because I think if you have great footwork you can really draw the music to the audience, despite having limited upper body movement.

But then again, and I may be attacked here, there’s a reason why I sincerely don’t like Michelle Kwan’s On My Own program: I don’t think Eponine would have that smiley expression while singing this hearbreaking song. It was really hard for me to overlook that (LOL).

So yeah, between the two I choose A, but a combination of two is the ideal.
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
Hypothetically,

Skater A strokes on the beat throuought the program, times the jumps and big movements with musical accents or highlights, skates exactly on the beat throughout step sequences, with some surprising highlights reflecting details of the music, times arm movements and changes of foot or position in spins with the musical phrasing, etc, but shows hardly any facial expression and uses limited upper body movement.

Skater B is very emotionally expressive to the overall feel and mood of the music, uses the face and whole body to engage with the audience, but doesn't phrase or time the movement directly to the music at all, often starting an element in the middle of a musical phrase or vice versa, etc.

Who is more musical?

Both to an extent, but neither really.
 
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