Evgenia Medvedeva withdraws from Worlds 2018 | Page 16 | Golden Skate

Evgenia Medvedeva withdraws from Worlds 2018

lavenderblossom

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 24, 2017
Guess we disagree then ... This sort of music, especially during the step sequence, does call for specifically frantic interpretation. And for example, going from the end of the step sequence to the first jump almost all the gestures are done to the music and certainly make sense to me. Especially the theme of transformation. Compare the facial expressions during the earlier parts of the program to them during the latter parts, also.

I guess if you won't get it you won't get it...

Come now, we all see things differently, it's not a case of "not getting it".
To me it lacks flow between the movements as well. It's like... the music asks for sharp movements, not for choppiness. The choreography itself is fine, great even. It just feels like, to me there are times where she pauses between one movement and the next and she's not quite connecting it to the last movement. Not all the time though. There are some wonderful moments, but then between notes she just kind of stops when she should be holding a movement or extending it or something. And it affects the way I see it because instead of thinking why that was movement was great I'm wondering why it's not keeping my attention. Also don't you edit out that you thought it was a masterpiece. I just wanted to try and explain why I disagreed.

"Not getting it" can also mean "you didn't understand it", not "you must see it differently".
 

Old Cat Lady

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
D'oh. I knew I should have looked at the Sochi skates after making that comment :biggrin: Didn't pay very close attention to the last couple Olympics. As for Mao, I agree that if you're doing a triple axel you don't need to do a lutz unless the other top competitors are doing the axel.

But my point still stands, Evgenia was fairly rewarded and lost because she just gave up too many points going in. I considered the component scores when I said Alina should still have won the short program. It's easy to pick apart programs because you don't like some aspects, but each score, both technically and components, have multiple factors in the scoring and you don't necessarily need to be great at all of them to deserve high marks. For example, Hanyu doesn't always have great extension on his jump landings but he still deserves the GOE 3's on his triple axels because he fills other criteria. I think most people would look at me like I have 3 heads if I said that Hanyu's 4 toe should get lower scores than Aliev's because Hanyu doesn't point his toes as well on the landing.

The frantic nature of Alina's choreography suited the movie theme. Even if you disagree with that, it only affects 1 component score. She still had a lot of transition from element to element and the back loading doesn't disrupt the program the way it does in the long program. I liked both of Evgenia's programs more than Alina's, but the judges rewarded her for the things she was superior at. Alina's long program is weaker on the components which is why I thought Evgenia should have won that portion outright. But Alina's short program is strong enough that Evgenia couldn't close the technical gap with the component mark.
 

Ziotic

Medalist
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
.

The frantic nature of Alina's choreography suited the movie theme. Even if you disagree with that, it only affects 1 component score. She still had a lot of transition from element to element and the back loading doesn't disrupt the program the way it does in the long program. I liked both of Evgenia's programs more than Alina's, but the judges rewarded her for the things she was superior at. Alina's long program is weaker on the components which is why I thought Evgenia should have won that portion outright. But Alina's short program is strong enough that Evgenia couldn't close the technical gap with the component mark.

Personally I don’t think frantic has to mean unfinished, which I find her movement to be. I’ve also stated before that just because you have a lot of something (transitions) doesn’t make them good or appropriate.

I don’t have a problem with backloading, although I don’t think it should exist in any situation in a short program.

I also went back an rewatched the skate and her face is blank for the entire program. She is clearly thinking about what’s next at all times which I find distracting to the performance.
 

singerskates

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
:laugh2:

I can show you how stupid all complaints about backloading are. We can take Olympics as an example.

Alina SP backloading bonus: 1.11(3Lz+3Lo) + 0.53(3F) + 0.33(2A) = 1.97
Evgenia SP backloading bonus: 0.96(3F+3T) + 0.51(3Lo) + 0.33(2A) = 1.8
Kaetlyn SP backloading bonus: 0.33 (2A) = 0.33

Alina FS backloading bonus: 0.6(3Lz) + 0.76(2A+3T) + 0.84(3F+2T+2Lo) + 1.11(3Lz+3Lo) + 0.44(3S) + 0.53(3F) + 0.33(2A) = 4.61
Evgenia FS backloading bonus: 0.53(3F) + 0.51(3Lo) + 0.59(2A+2T+2T) + 0.87(3S+3T) + 0.33(2A) = 2.83
Kaetlyn FS backloading bonus: 0.51(3Lo) + 0.53(3F) + 0.75(3S+2T+2Lo) + 0.33(2A) = 2.12

Total scores without backloading bonuses:
Alina: 239.57 - 1.97(SP Bonus) - 4.61(FS Bonus) = 232.99
Evgenia: 238.26 - 1.8(SP Bonus) - 2.83(FS Bonus) = 233.63
Kaetlyn: 231.02 - 0.33(SP Bonus) - 2.12(FS Bonus) = 228.57

As you can see Kaetlyn still third. Russians are still on top with a convenient margin. The funny thing is that even without any backloading bonuses for both russians, they still would have higher scores than Kaetlyn with all her backloading bonuses included... May be problem is not in the backloading? May be something else is a problem? Like, technical content(3Lz-3Lo vs flutz)?
Yes, but if Kaetlyn does all her jumps in the second half and they are clean and she switches a few of the easier triples to quads , like quad Salchow and quad Toe Loop, then she could beat everyone. And after seeing what the top Junior lady did at Junior World, all the ladies need to start working on quads.
 

kenboy123

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
:laugh2:

I can show you how stupid all complaints about backloading are. We can take Olympics as an example.

Alina SP backloading bonus: 1.11(3Lz+3Lo) + 0.53(3F) + 0.33(2A) = 1.97
Evgenia SP backloading bonus: 0.96(3F+3T) + 0.51(3Lo) + 0.33(2A) = 1.8
Kaetlyn SP backloading bonus: 0.33 (2A) = 0.33

Alina FS backloading bonus: 0.6(3Lz) + 0.76(2A+3T) + 0.84(3F+2T+2Lo) + 1.11(3Lz+3Lo) + 0.44(3S) + 0.53(3F) + 0.33(2A) = 4.61
Evgenia FS backloading bonus: 0.53(3F) + 0.51(3Lo) + 0.59(2A+2T+2T) + 0.87(3S+3T) + 0.33(2A) = 2.83
Kaetlyn FS backloading bonus: 0.51(3Lo) + 0.53(3F) + 0.75(3S+2T+2Lo) + 0.33(2A) = 2.12

Total scores without backloading bonuses:
Alina: 239.57 - 1.97(SP Bonus) - 4.61(FS Bonus) = 232.99
Evgenia: 238.26 - 1.8(SP Bonus) - 2.83(FS Bonus) = 233.63
Kaetlyn: 231.02 - 0.33(SP Bonus) - 2.12(FS Bonus) = 228.57

As you can see Kaetlyn still third. Russians are still on top with a convenient margin. The funny thing is that even without any backloading bonuses for both russians, they still would have higher scores than Kaetlyn with all her backloading bonuses included... May be problem is not in the backloading? May be something else is a problem? Like, technical content(3Lz-3Lo vs flutz)?

What you did prove here is without the backloading, Zagitova would have never won...instead, Medvedeva would have, the Russians would still be on top, yes..but, the final result would different...so, yes...it makes a difference...
 

russianfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 4, 2017
Yes, but if Kaetlyn does all her jumps in the second half and they are clean and she switches a few of the easier triples to quads , like quad Salchow and quad Toe Loop, then she could beat everyone. And after seeing what the top Junior lady did at Junior World, all the ladies need to start working on quads.

Neither Osmond nor Medvedeva or Zagitova will never be able to jump quads. I don't believe in this at all. Its like saying "if Miyahara will jump few quads she could beat anyone". What's the point of these "ifs" if we know it's never going to happen?
 

russianfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 4, 2017
What you did prove here is without the backloading, Zagitova would have never won...instead, Medvedeva would have, the Russians would still be on top, yes..but, the final result would different...so, yes...it makes a difference...

You doesn't seem to understand what's being discussed. I was answering to the post which claims that canadians need to start backloading to catch up. This is not the case yet. At first they need to become more consistent and try harder elements. Backloading can be a key factor only when difference between skaters is very, very small, and then every point or half of the point really matters. Unfortunately, this is not yet the case with Osmond, because as you can see even with backloading removed she is still behind. Considering that she has got slightly higher components than Zagitova, the entire difference between her and Zagitova comes from technical elements. Even with backloading bonuses removed, she is behind by about 5 points on technical score alone.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Neither Osmond nor Medvedeva or Zagitova will never be able to jump quads. I don't believe in this at all. Its like saying "if Miyahara will jump few quads she could beat anyone". What's the point of these "ifs" if we know it's never going to happen?

Yes... because Miyahara's jumps are the same as Osmond's.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I guess the point was that Osmond and Miyahara have the same quad potential(0%).

Uh, how exactly are you measuring "quad potential" here? Osmond jumps are much bigger than Miyahara's so the possibility of Osmond being able to execute one, while minimal, is still better than Miyahara's.

I'm sure many people would have also thought Mirai Nagasu has a 3A potential of 0%.
 

Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Uh, how exactly are you measuring "quad potential" here? Osmond jumps are much bigger than Miyahara's so the possibility of Osmond being able to execute one, while minimal, is still better than Miyahara's.

I'm sure many people would have also thought Mirai Nagasu has a 3A potential of 0%.
Potential that the skater will perform a clean quad in their career. It has two aspects, really: Jump air time and jump rotation speed. Osmond mostly falls short on the rotation speed aspect but her air time is not enough either. I give both 0% ... No fractions.

I said nothing about 3A here - A quad's not a 3A. Mirai needs 5.0 revolutions per second with 18/30 frames of air time for a borderline 3A. Trusova needs 5.5 revolutions per second with 19/30 frames of air time for a borderline quad. And in general, the viable body types for quads and 3As are quite different.

A 3A wouldn't be such an outlandish idea, though I still would bet against it.
 

russianfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 4, 2017
Uh, how exactly are you measuring "quad potential" here? Osmond jumps are much bigger than Miyahara's so the possibility of Osmond being able to execute one, while minimal, is still better than Miyahara's.

I'm sure many people would have also thought Mirai Nagasu has a 3A potential of 0%.

I mentioned Miyahara just as a first random skater who came to my mind.
Regarding height... I think you understand that quads are not only about height, and also Osmond's jump height is not much different from that of Medvedeva or Zagitova, but she rotates slower. I would say Daleman is the only senior lady who has chances slightly above zero to land a quad, but she is also very slow at rotation. I guess one needs to be close to 5.00 breakpoint (while having a good height) to have any chances, but Daleman is usually at 4.0-4.2. Zagitova is close to 5.0 at some jumps, but she lacks height to do that, so i doubt she will have more height with approaching puberty, etc.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Potential that the skater will perform a clean quad in their career. It has two aspects, really: Jump air time and jump rotation speed. Osmond mostly falls short on the rotation speed aspect but her air time is not enough either. I give both 0% ... No fractions.

I said nothing about 3A here - A quad's not a 3A. Mirai needs 5.0 revolutions per second with 18/30 frames of air time for a borderline 3A. Trusova needs 5.5 revolutions per second with 19/30 frames of air time for a borderline quad. And in general, the viable body types for quads and 3As are quite different.

A 3A wouldn't be such an outlandish idea, though I still would bet against it.

And can you guarantee than Osmond will not improve her air time and rotation speed in years to come?

Also, ever thought maybe Osmond has slower rotational speed because she has more height? Ie if she had faster rotational speed on her jumps she would be over rotating them.

It's like using a skater's rotational speed on their double jumps to say that will be their rotational speed on their triple jumps, when the latter will obviously have more speed, height and snap.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Side note: gotta love people using the scientifically sound method of leveraging 30FPS YouTube videos to determine rotational speed and quad potential. :laugh:
 

Shayuki

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Side note: gotta love people using the scientifically sound method of leveraging 30FPS YouTube videos to determine rotational speed and quad potential. :laugh:
For Trusova's quads at junior worlds, it was a 60 FPS video, actually.

38/60 FPS of air time and 5.4 - 5.5 revolutions per second of rotation speed(Consistent between both quads). And that was enough for a borderline quad.

I don't see what's wrong with the method, especially when using 60 FPS footage... You can see a lot in it.

On Osmond's potential, she will not improve her air time and rotation speed by enough even if she puts everything into it. The requirements are insane.
 

russianfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 4, 2017
What was the FPS used to determine Osmond's rotational speed, and from which competition?

competitions

And like I said, Osmond's rotational speed is "slow" because she doesn't need to rotate as fast as some of the other girls due to her height.

I actually think it's rather "she requires good height, because her rotation speed is too slow". The same with Tsurskaya for example (on her highest jump, 3Lz she has the slowest rotation speed)
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
competitions



I actually think it's rather "she requires good height, because her rotation speed is too slow". The same with Tsurskaya for example (on her highest jump, 3Lz she has the slowest rotation speed)

Osmond/Tsurkaya get good height which means she doesn't have to rotate as fast. It makes sense - the more airtime you have the less tight you have to be (although skaters like Chen seem to be an exception, where she does get good height but rotates slowly, hence URs). My coach always said, JUMP your jumps, don't rotate them... if you jump them you don't have to rely on fast rotation as you do harder jumps.

I don't know why my previous post got deleted but essentially it was arguing that a skater usually has lower rotational speed based on the difficulty of the element being executed. A 2T will have less rotational speed than a 3T. So using Osmond's or anyone else's triple rotational speed as a measure of how fast they would rotate a quad isn't accurate. I also made the point that a skater who can do a triple jump fully rotated with slower rotational speed means they have the height plus perhaps some room to pull in tighter whereas a skater who needs fast rotation to land their triples (like Satoko in that link) will be unlikely to attempt a quad.

Note some of the jumpers with the greatest height have the lower speeds of rotation because if they rotated faster with the height they get they would overrotate the jump. For potential quadsters, I'm watching for skaters with a combination of good height & LOWER rotations per second on their triple, versus skaters who have high rps on their triples (and would need to be even faster to do a quad). In that list, Daleman, Osmond, Medvedeva and Tsurkaya seem to be the most obvious candidates. And also bear in mind this is not up to date data either, from last season.

Also note that Wakaba Higuchi has some of the highest rotation but the slowest rotation speed of her 2A... and is the only one on that list who has shown she can land a 3A. Which supports my point.

I'd be interested in seeing an updated list of this with a high FPS rate, and I'd also be interested in comparing things like height and rotation speed on Nagasu/Kihira/Tuktamysheva/Asada/Higuchi's 2A vs their 3A, and height and RPS on Trusova/Scherbakova's quads vs those jumps as triples.
 

singerskates

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Well said. Fans don't understand jump science like past or present skaters do. On that note I know that there's a slim chance of me landing anything more than a 2T or 2 S in my life time. I'm an adult skater who began to learn figure skating at the age of 38 and before that I held onto the boards. Back in my early 40's I had a ¼ cheat on my 2S. Now at 55 with middle age spread, I'm lucky to land a clean 1Lz once in a while. As an adult on-set skater, I know that the more height I have on my jumps, the more chance of landing my jumps clean. If I don't have enough height with the width and weight of my body, pulling in tighter can only get me so much hang time to rotate. Which means if I only pull in but don't give myself enough air, the jump will fail.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Wow this thread has really diverged Tsurkaya and Osmond's rotation and height on jumps in respect to quads. I wonder how Evgenia feels watching at home.

Right now Carolina isinthe lead and with the Italian "luck" or "magic" of competing in Italy so far Italy islooking really "good"so Caromight winandIwonder if Evgenia regrets not competing??
 
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