2018-19 Russian Ice Dance

gmyers said:

People underestimated papadakis ability to improve and she did improve and then when she went to the best coach in ice dance history dubreuil she really did even better! So if you have shown a capacity to improve why would there be any dumping? Especially if you are good to begin with but inferior to the partner.

Russian juniors are braking up because the Russian system says only one skater needs talent and that’s not working anymore in seniors. Russian teams together for a decade are learning that you can’t have one partner with bobrova or Stepanova skating skills. P/v and l/d had to split. So should b/s and s/b. No need to be together for years! Look at h/b and c/b and g/p and so many more.

Loboda was packaged terribly but that doesn’t mean she had a future anyway. Her best future was a Stepanova or bobrova future. Why does drozd want that?

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Whenever you are being sarcastic or honestly think what you wrote, i think the mentality that you described may be the main issue of russian ice dance: thinking that talent >> years together.

I mean, I/K are a perfect example of why russian ice dance has issues.

moriel said:

Whenever you are being sarcastic or honestly think what you wrote, i think the mentality that you described may be the main issue of russian ice dance: thinking that talent >> years together.

I mean, I/K are a perfect example of why russian ice dance has issues.

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If they were clueless as to what to do with a golden pair I can imagine the strategies they have for mere plodders. Russian ice dance, bless their hearts, thank you for the laughs.

2018 Worlds
1 Gabriella Papadakis / Guillaume Cizeron: skate together since 2006 or so, paired as kids.
2 Madison Hubbell / Zachary Donohue: skate together since 2011. First made GPF in 15-16. First had a top placement this season (4th at Olympics, 2nd at Worlds)
3 Kaitlyn Weaver / Andrew Poje: skate together since 2006. First made GPF in 10-11. First had a top 5 placement at Worlds at 10-11.
4 Anna Cappellini / Luca Lanotte: skate together since 2005. First made GPF in 09-10. First top 5 placement at Worlds: 12-13.
5 Madison Chock / Evan Bates: skate together since 2011. First GPF in 14-15. First worlds top 5 placement: 13-14.

2017 Worlds
1 Tessa Virtue / Scott Moir: skate together since 1997, paired as kids.
2 Gabriella Papadakis / Guillaume Cizeron
3 Maia Shibutani / Alex Shibutani: skate together since 2004, paired as kids.
4 Kaitlyn Weaver / Andrew Poje
5 Ekaterina Bobrova / Dmitri Soloviev: skate together since 2000, paired as kids.

2016 Worlds
1 Gabriella Papadakis / Guillaume Cizeron
2 Maia Shibutani / Alex Shibutani
3 Madison Chock / Evan Bates
4 Anna Cappellini / Luca Lanotte
5 Kaitlyn Weaver / Andrew Poje

2015 Worlds
1 Gabriella Papadakis / Guillaume Cizeron
2 Madison Chock / Evan Bates
3 Kaitlyn Weaver / Andrew Poje
4 Anna Cappellini / Luca Lanotte
5 Maia Shibutani / Alex Shibutani

2014 Worlds
1 Anna Cappellini / Luca Lanotte
2 Kaitlyn Weaver / Andrew Poje
3 Nathalie Péchalat / Fabian Bourzat: skating together since 2000, first GPF in 07-08, first worlds top 5 in 08-09
4 Elena Ilinykh / Nikita Katsalapov: paired as kids, together since 2008.
5 Madison Chock / Evan Bates


At last 5 worlds, the top 5 team that spent less time together at the time of the placement were Chock / Bates, in 2014, after about 3 seasons of skating together. C/B and H/D are the only teams that didnt skate together at juniors.

Conclusion: it looks like it takes at least 3-4 seasons for a new team with potential to get to the top level.

moriel said:

Whenever you are being sarcastic or honestly think what you wrote, i think the mentality that you described may be the main issue of russian ice dance: thinking that talent >> years together.

I mean, I/K are a perfect example of why russian ice dance has issues.

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Does anyone want to be b/s or s/b with all their years together? No. No one anywhere not even in russia wants the s/b or b/s career because there’s no hope of world or Olympic titles or even gpf appearances. Both partners need talent. Teams need to train. I/k believed their talent meant the didn’t need to train. No. You must go to the best coaches if you have amazing talent. You can’t have talent and be coached by zhulin! Lol. Or kustarova! Lol. No !!!teams with amazing talent need to train under a dubreuil. Katsalapov problem was and is hatred of training because he’s so amazing.

Russia allows I/k to do ghost. Allowed horrible behavior off ice. Just disgusting behavior.

moriel said:

2018 Worlds
1 Gabriella Papadakis / Guillaume Cizeron: skate together since 2006 or so, paired as kids.
2 Madison Hubbell / Zachary Donohue: skate together since 2011. First made GPF in 15-16. First had a top placement this season (4th at Olympics, 2nd at Worlds)
3 Kaitlyn Weaver / Andrew Poje: skate together since 2006. First made GPF in 10-11. First had a top 5 placement at Worlds at 10-11.
4 Anna Cappellini / Luca Lanotte: skate together since 2005. First made GPF in 09-10. First top 5 placement at Worlds: 12-13.
5 Madison Chock / Evan Bates: skate together since 2011. First GPF in 14-15. First worlds top 5 placement: 13-14.

2017 Worlds
1 Tessa Virtue / Scott Moir: skate together since 1997, paired as kids.
2 Gabriella Papadakis / Guillaume Cizeron
3 Maia Shibutani / Alex Shibutani: skate together since 2004, paired as kids.
4 Kaitlyn Weaver / Andrew Poje
5 Ekaterina Bobrova / Dmitri Soloviev: skate together since 2000, paired as kids.

2016 Worlds
1 Gabriella Papadakis / Guillaume Cizeron
2 Maia Shibutani / Alex Shibutani
3 Madison Chock / Evan Bates
4 Anna Cappellini / Luca Lanotte
5 Kaitlyn Weaver / Andrew Poje

2015 Worlds
1 Gabriella Papadakis / Guillaume Cizeron
2 Madison Chock / Evan Bates
3 Kaitlyn Weaver / Andrew Poje
4 Anna Cappellini / Luca Lanotte
5 Maia Shibutani / Alex Shibutani

2014 Worlds
1 Anna Cappellini / Luca Lanotte
2 Kaitlyn Weaver / Andrew Poje
3 Nathalie Péchalat / Fabian Bourzat: skating together since 2000, first GPF in 07-08, first worlds top 5 in 08-09
4 Elena Ilinykh / Nikita Katsalapov: paired as kids, together since 2008.
5 Madison Chock / Evan Bates


At last 5 worlds, the top 5 team that spent less time together at the time of the placement were Chock / Bates, in 2014, after about 3 seasons of skating together. C/B and H/D are the only teams that didnt skate together at juniors.

Conclusion: it looks like it takes at least 3-4 seasons for a new team with potential to get to the top level.

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Yes! Thank you! You can’t be like l/d and be last or near last at all their events while all the experts are saying “wow! Loboda has almost no skating skills at all!” So when there is no potential there must be a breakup.

With new teams there must be strong coaching. Not zhulin or kustarova joke coaches.

Many teams would LOVE to be B/S. Honestly, having another B/S would be a great thing for russian ice dance because it is not like they got any V/M or P/C on the horizon.

Overall, i think in this quad we will have S/B somewhere between 5th and 10th at worlds, and S/K and Z/G somewhere between 10th and 15th maybe (?)
Everybody else is not just there yet, and considering how stuff works in dance, it will be only for the next quad.

Potential is debatable. For example, I remember how people complained about Papadakis and how she was not anywhere as good as Cizeron.
There are things that can be developed.

moriel said:

Many teams would LOVE to be B/S. Honestly, having another B/S would be a great thing for russian ice dance because it is not like they got any V/M or P/C on the horizon.

Overall, i think in this quad we will have S/B somewhere between 5th and 10th at worlds, and S/K and Z/G somewhere between 10th and 15th maybe (?)
Everybody else is not just there yet, and considering how stuff works in dance, it will be only for the next quad.

Potential is debatable. For example, I remember how people complained about Papadakis and how she was not anywhere as good as Cizeron.
There are things that can be developed.

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B/S career is not something that’s desired. Everyone saying bobrova needs to learn to skate and they don’t even deserve to be in top 10 and all their scores are because of power of Russian federation.

You are totally right but papadakis went to dubreuil! What Russian is Allowed to go to dubreuil? No Russians. Russians aren’t allowed by Russia to have anything but Russian coaches. France allows its skaters to go to whatever coaches are the it people and dubreuil was an it person and helped papadakis. Maybe if s/k or s/b were allowed to dubreuil she could fix those teams enormous problems.

gmyers said:

B/S career is not something that’s desired. Everyone saying bobrova needs to learn to skate and they don’t even deserve to be in top 10 and all their scores are because of power of Russian federation.

You are totally right but papadakis went to dubreuil! What Russian is Allowed to go to dubreuil? No Russians. Russians aren’t allowed by Russia to have anything but Russian coaches. France allows its skaters to go to whatever coaches are the it people and dubreuil was an it person and helped papadakis. Maybe if s/k or s/b were allowed to dubreuil she could fix those teams enormous problems.

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Teaching someone to use their knees in their 20's is a pointless waste of time. These teams just have to use their best attributes to their advantage. If you look at Sinitsina's dry knees and poor dancing ability in last year's SD as well as others these two need to stick to balletic pieces for the rest of their careers. S/B thankfully have tangible chemistry, the ability to dance and more range.

Russia needs to rebuild their dance program from the ground up and get the jealous Aunties, Uncles, Grandmothers and Fairy godmothers out of the rink and just get down to work and STICK together and oh yeah, women don't stay 15 forever and forcing them to severely restrict their diets to maintain that figure will not cut it. They need to take a cue form Scott Moir and see how he developed his physique when Tessa grew into a woman. These Russian male ice dancers come across like pathatic whiners, albeit the majority are somewhat average in build and height. I am sure Zack Donahue hasn't got it easy but he's got his world silver and I have a feeling many more are in store.

You are telling me that in Canada, France or USA, if you had two such talented dancers as Drozd and Ilinykh without partners despite their resevations, that a tryout wouldn't have been arranged already?

All of this is just utter nonsense. Ice dance is not really important to Russia, otherwise the rubbish we're seeing today would have been dealt with a long time ago. And I'm not referring only to the situation with Drozd, it's just the time and money they spend on utterly hopeless pairs, its ridiculous.

bramweld said:

Teaching someone to use their knees in their 20's is a pointless waste of time. These teams just have to use their best attributes to their advantage. If you look at Sinitsina's dry knees and poor dancing ability in last year's SD as well as others these two need to stick to balletic pieces for the rest of their careers. S/B thankfully have tangible chemistry, the ability to dance and more range.

Russia needs to rebuild their dance program from the ground up and get the jealous Aunties, Uncles, Grandmothers and Fairy godmothers out of the rink and just get down to work and STICK together and oh yeah, women don't stay 15 forever and forcing them to severely restrict their diets to maintain that figure will not cut it. They need to take a cue form Scott Moir and see how he developed his physique when Tessa grew into a woman. These Russian male ice dancers come across like pathatic whiners, albeit the majority are somewhat average in build and height. I am sure Zack Donahue hasn't got it easy but he's got his world silver and I have a feeling many more are in store.

You are telling me that in Canada, France or USA, if you had two such talented dancers as Drozd and Ilinykh without partners despite their resevations, that a tryout wouldn't have been arranged already?

All of this is just utter nonsense. Ice dance is not really important to Russia, otherwise the rubbish we're seeing today would have been dealt with a long time ago. And I'm not referring only to the situation with Drozd, it's just the time and money they spend on utterly hopeless pairs, its ridiculous.

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But Stepanova needs skating skills! This is not optional. Otherwise she’s just a Bobrova ruining all potential of Bukin. They can have chemistry and range and dance but they need levels in the technical Elements with goe and PCS especially skating skills PCS. This formulation basically is about how s/b should retire from competing and do shows in Russia.

Hubbell and Donahue has had real coaches throughout his career not people like zhulin or kustarova. Plus I totally agree and have said myself everyone in every level of the Russian ice dance establishment needs to be fired or they should pay dubreuil or a dubreuil deputy or maybe spiliband to have some classes and teach Russians what 2018 ijs ice dance is.

Ilinykh is ilinykh. She says she screams and cries in practices and is an enormous challenge to any partner. That’s not rumor. That’s what’s she says. No one wants to skate with her. Now it’s a fact that Grishuk not only screamed and cried but also hit and abused her Partners! But that was with world medals and Olympic medals. Plus ice dance being totally dominated by Russian style and unlike now where almost all judges hate Russian style!

gmyers said:

But Stepanova needs skating skills! This is not optional. Otherwise she’s just a Bobrova ruining all potential of Bukin. They can have chemistry and range and dance but they need levels in the technical Elements with goe and PCS especially skating skills PCS. This formulation basically is about how s/b should retire from competing and do shows in Russia.

Hubbell and Donahue has had real coaches throughout his career not people like zhulin or kustarova. Plus I totally agree and have said myself everyone in every level of the Russian ice dance establishment needs to be fired or they should pay dubreuil or a dubreuil deputy or maybe spiliband to have some classes and teach Russians what 2018 ijs ice dance is.

Ilinykh is ilinykh. She says she screams and cries in practices and is an enormous challenge to any partner. That’s not rumor. That’s what’s she says. No one wants to skate with her. Now it’s a fact that Grishuk not only screamed and cried but also hit and abused her Partners! But that was with world medals and Olympic medals. Plus ice dance being totally dominated by Russian style and unlike now where almost all judges hate Russian style!

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Don't know how to break this to you, but many dancers do they are creative sensitive people, many are worse they just don't admit it. Katsalapov is no better, probably even worse. But what do you want to be a winner or an also ran? When she's in her element the judges love Ilinykh. This year the CD is the Romantic Tango and Ilinykh is benched, haha, how ridiculous is that? Her paso doble from 2015 was the best SD of that season I still rewatch that dance as well as the vehicle from Hurtado and Diaz, classics. Now speaking of a woman who could scream and cry, I bet it has something to do with the partner in question. An unreasonable or uncommunicative partner can be a major aggravation, just saying.

EDIT: Who wouldn't scream and cry with Katsalapov for a partner, Zhulin, Morozov and Zueva could tell long tales about that self proclaimed hot headed young man. Everyone deserves chances to grow up, even if they happen to be Elena Ilinykh.

bramweld said:

Teaching someone to use their knees in their 20's is a pointless waste of time. These teams just have to use their best attributes to their advantage. If you look at Sinitsina's dry knees and poor dancing ability in last year's SD as well as others these two need to stick to balletic pieces for the rest of their careers. S/B thankfully have tangible chemistry, the ability to dance and more range.

Russia needs to rebuild their dance program from the ground up and get the jealous Aunties, Uncles, Grandmothers and Fairy godmothers out of the rink and just get down to work and STICK together and oh yeah, women don't stay 15 forever and forcing them to severely restrict their diets to maintain that figure will not cut it. They need to take a cue form Scott Moir and see how he developed his physique when Tessa grew into a woman. These Russian male ice dancers come across like pathatic whiners, albeit the majority are somewhat average in build and height. I am sure Zack Donahue hasn't got it easy but he's got his world silver and I have a feeling many more are in store.

You are telling me that in Canada, France or USA, if you had two such talented dancers as Drozd and Ilinykh without partners despite their resevations, that a tryout wouldn't have been arranged already?

All of this is just utter nonsense. Ice dance is not really important to Russia, otherwise the rubbish we're seeing today would have been dealt with a long time ago. And I'm not referring only to the situation with Drozd, it's just the time and money they spend on utterly hopeless pairs, its ridiculous.

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Overall though...
I think in the specific situation with Drozd, he has same issues with Katsalapov, and the partnership ended not because she was bad, but because he thought he was a star.
Dunno, for example when V/M skate to MR, you see partners attracted to each other on ice. When you see Drozd skate, you see he is attracted to himself, and his partner is just a sort of a nuisance. At least how i felt about Loboda/Drozd.


Also, what sucks about ID is how conservative and how reputation based it is.
Russian ID kinda failed to change in time, and now will spend next 4+ years with 2 spots for major competitions no matter what they do.

moriel said:

Overall though...
I think in the specific situation with Drozd, he has same issues with Katsalapov, and the partnership ended not because she was bad, but because he thought he was a star.
Dunno, for example when V/M skate to MR, you see partners attracted to each other on ice. When you see Drozd skate, you see he is attracted to himself, and his partner is just a sort of a nuisance. At least how i felt about Loboda/Drozd.


Also, what sucks about ID is how conservative and how reputation based it is.
Russian ID kinda failed to change in time, and now will spend next 4+ years with 2 spots for major competitions no matter what they do.

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Nah, I don't see that with Drozd, he actually pays attention to Alla, but she most times can't match him. Katsalapov skates as though he's skating with a rag doll and pulls all the attention to himself. Alla's technique was always a step behind. But I often wondered why didn't he just skate at her level skate together? Was that the fault though of his coaches? But in general I just thought that technically he was too far ahead of Alla and she was always struggling to catch up with him. I found them sort of sad really. Oh well....are we just back to square one?

moriel said:

Overall though...
I think in the specific situation with Drozd, he has same issues with Katsalapov, and the partnership ended not because she was bad, but because he thought he was a star.
Dunno, for example when V/M skate to MR, you see partners attracted to each other on ice. When you see Drozd skate, you see he is attracted to himself, and his partner is just a sort of a nuisance. At least how i felt about Loboda/Drozd.

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This comment is art. I'm so glad that you're on this forum, that's exactly what it's like. And especially bad bc in both pairs and ice dance, the male partner is supposed to be showing off the female partner *shakes head*

You see it also in pairs where someone like Morgan Ciprès is doing incredible lifts and throws with Vanessa James. She is much taller than some ladies and in a woman's body and yet he has gotten the strength to kneel from standing while holding her in the air.

Splitting so close to the start of the new season, Drozd has probably given up this season.

moriel said:

Overall though...
I think in the specific situation with Drozd, he has same issues with Katsalapov, and the partnership ended not because she was bad, but because he thought he was a star.
Dunno, for example when V/M skate to MR, you see partners attracted to each other on ice. When you see Drozd skate, you see he is attracted to himself, and his partner is just a sort of a nuisance. At least how i felt about Loboda/Drozd.


Also, what sucks about ID is how conservative and how reputation based it is.
Russian ID kinda failed to change in time, and now will spend next 4+ years with 2 spots for major competitions no matter what they do.

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There is something in what You've said here - Virtue/Moir are/were special in terms of partnership on many levels, but what got me the most was the synergy between them and mutual attraction being on the same level as their mutual support while performing. It did not make itself overnight, nor in one-two seasons - it takes time to form a bond between partners that will carry them places, lots of hard work and growing up mentally along with physical development. It also takes a good, nurturing environment that will push them both as an unit, making the partnership work, not making one as a lead who takes all the attention and spotlight just because e.g. he/she is a better technician. Seeing Loboda/Drozd or earlier Yanovskaya/Mozgov I saw two individuals more like dancing with each other than dancing TOGETHER - with Alla and Pavel, the feeling was intensified by packaging unfortunately.

For me, to make things work, it does not necessarily take like two amazing technicians, two 'stars' personalities', two outstanding performers - sometimes (or even often) it takes just a couple of friends, people supporting each other in thick and thin who are willing to work hard together on everything and slowly one brings the best out of the other one and vice versa.I've always had this feeling about e.g. Weaver/Poje - they were not so good, from technical and presentation points of view, at the very beginning, but somehow they found a space for themselves and just keep growing, developing. But you have to stick together for starters which is the main problem in young, even promising, Russian ID teams.

And about your point concerning conservative/reputational thing in Ice Dance - yes, it is a thing that irks me probably the most in the discipline: when you've got judges' love, you've got it no matter what, developing reputation that carries you through even hard times. And judges tend to set themselves on one particular aesthetic of programs sometimes with very little recognition of other stuff, stuff that is 'off the pack'. Russian Ice Dance has very distinct flair about itself, maybe because all (or majority?) Russian teams are coached by Russians - I've always see a lot of attention paid to technical side of programs in young teams which is a good thing, but somehow with growth, transition to seniors, their packaging often overshadows their technical ability/skills. I may be very naïve, but I think that material should be chosen just more carefully, with respect to both partners, their energy, how they move and express emotions - to give them something appearing 'adult' or 'senior' just by the notion of it with no match between skaters and music/choreography/character is wrong and misleading in my opinion. It all takes a lot of balance to grow up a team that will be successful for a long term - Shibutanis are for me another example of having their share of troubles during their competitive career, having a totally mediocre period after 2011 Worlds bronze medal, finding their feet a season after Sochi Olympics. But as probably Giselle mentioned above - they stuck together through these hard times and I can imagine how discouraged they were with their right to complain or quit. Russian duos have the example of Bobrova/Soloviev and now also by Stepanova/Bukin - and I'm not talking necessary about material, stuff they've done, but their longevity and brand made for themselves internationally.

B&S aren't my favorites from a technical standpoint but I think that Zhulin and his team does a great job of giving them interesting dances.

dcnative said:

B&S aren't my favorites from a technical standpoint but I think that Zhulin and his team does a great job of giving them interesting dances.

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whenever we like them or not they were #1 russian team last quad

I cannot be fully happy with ice dancing until we get another DIVA Russian dance team!!

Hahahahahaha, I need to get a life.

If only Nikita.......

bramweld said:

Don't know how to break this to you, but many dancers do they are creative sensitive people, many are worse they just don't admit it. Katsalapov is no better, probably even worse. But what do you want to be a winner or an also ran? When she's in her element the judges love Ilinykh. This year the CD is the Romantic Tango and Ilinykh is benched, haha, how ridiculous is that? Her paso doble from 2015 was the best SD of that season I still rewatch that dance as well as the vehicle from Hurtado and Diaz, classics. Now speaking of a woman who could scream and cry, I bet it has something to do with the partner in question. An unreasonable or uncommunicative partner can be a major aggravation, just saying.

EDIT: Who wouldn't scream and cry with Katsalapov for a partner, Zhulin, Morozov and Zueva could tell long tales about that self proclaimed hot headed young man. Everyone deserves chances to grow up, even if they happen to be Elena Ilinykh.

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Not just with katsalapov! Zhiganshin too! That was ilinykh training method no matter the partner. The interview was from after she broke up with Zhiganshin. Why can’t she find a partner? No one wants the screaming and crying.

moriel said:

whenever we like them or not they were #1 russian team last quad

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And everyone knows where Russian ice dance is now! Why didn’t they switch to dubreil? Or spiliband or zueva?

gmyers said:

Not just with katsalapov! Zhiganshin too! That was ilinykh training method no matter the partner. The interview was from after she broke up with Zhiganshin. Why can’t she find a partner? No one wants the screaming and crying.



And everyone knows where Russian ice dance is now! Why didn’t they switch to dubreil? Or spiliband or zueva?

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Well, russian teams tried zueva, cannot say the results were impressive.
There is this thing, it not necessarily magically works, and considering that dance is a long term return thing, and a season with foreign coaching will not do magic, it is highly unlikely they will ever try, because I highly doubt that rusfed is willing to pay for several years of foreign coaching to see if there will be any results.

TBH, if i was rusfed and wanted to spend money, I would try to convince either Shpilband or Zueva to move back to russia, by offering them $$$ and facilities and benefits. It is more expensive than sending a team or two to train overseas, but could be a better investment long term.