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Thread: 2018-2019 GP Assignments

  1. #1901
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    @ribbit
    Then have a panel of approved doctors.
    If the team doctors certification is suspect(ordered to to give MC), have an independent one.

    I have said as 'simple as that' cos it is done in badminton. In order not to have too many variables and rival countries complaining(rightly so in my opinion), its a standard - for whatever reason withdrawal after the deadline, pay withdrawal fees.

    It is not assuming the athletes per se act in bad faith, things have happened before. Althetes have given walkovers when it is vs their team mates. Athletes have shown up, play a few pts, then retire the match citing injury. Then procede to next tournament 1 week later...ehem...fresh and very healthy.
    Google 2012 badminton olympics, you will see -
    https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/19072677

    The scandals of course are worse in football, globally a more popular sport.

    I dont follow tennis so I'm not sure how many of their participation is due to prize $$$ and how many due to team orders. Badminton is also racquet sports but pays far less.
    However, in any sports where sports betting is involved, I would not naively assume all is nice & dandy.

  2. #1902
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    Quote Originally Posted by ribbit View Post
    Yes, if you break your leg eight days before a competition almost anyone could confidently make the call that you should withdraw. But what if you sustained a stress fracture in your landing foot that you're told should heal within three months, and eight days before the competition it has indeed just about healed but a bad landing in practice causes you intense twinges of pain--do you take the chance that you won't have another bad landing in the competition, or do you panic and withdraw to avoid penalties? What if you lightly sprained your ankle three months earlier, recovered faster than the doctors had expected, and eight days before the competition were skating at 90% of your pre-injury peak and giving your team reason to be optimistic that with another week of training and therapy you would be ready to go--do you go ahead and compete, or withdraw and wonder what might have been? And what if you were approaching your first competition back from a break due to severe depression and anxiety? How, at eight days out, do you assess whether your feelings of nervousness and sleeplessness are something that you can and should work through with your therapist and team, or something that requires you to take a step back and slow down your comeback?

    tl;dr: These are simply not areas in which we can expect certainty--let alone the level of certainty that should be required to impose financial penalties on someone who gets it wrong.
    It is a matter of level of uncertainty. Skater would always be given a benefit of the doubt in the cases like you described and wouldn't be recommended for withdrawal and if you noticed, such procedure would be applied only after withdrawal of the skater from first grand prix event before the second event. There also analysis could be conducted beforehand how many of the cases of withdrawal could be done early on, and how many of them were uncertain till last minute. If level of uncertainty is so big that in 90% or even 50/50 of the cases you can't tell till last minute, then there is sure no point in discussion, but if in 90% skaters could withdraw earlier it makes sense to come up with something to sort out this problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by ribbit View Post
    Would it make sense to offer a skater who withdraws for documented medical reasons before a set date some protection in the standings, or some ranking points, or the opportunity to carry over a season's best score from the previous year, or the opportunity to join the substitute list for later events, or one slot on the GP for the following year if the skater didn't otherwise qualify for one?
    No way GP spot following year for sure, skaters want them so avidly and try to improve their season best scores to be higher in the ranking, and someone gets free spot just because of early withdrawal.

  3. #1903
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    @ribbit
    Then have a panel of approved doctors.
    If the team doctors certification is suspect(ordered to to give MC), have an independent one.

    I have said as 'simple as that' cos it is done in badminton. In order not to have too many variables and rival countries complaining(rightly so in my opinion), its a standard - for whatever reason withdrawal after the deadline, pay withdrawal fees.

    It is not assuming the athletes per se act in bad faith, things have happened before. Althetes have given walkovers when it is vs their team mates. Athletes have shown up, play a few pts, then retire the match citing injury. Then procede to next tournament 1 week later...ehem...fresh and very healthy.
    Google 2012 badminton olympics, you will see -
    https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/19072677

    The scandals of course are worse in football, globally a more popular sport.

    I dont follow tennis so I'm not sure how many of their participation is due to prize $$$ and how many due to team orders. Badminton is also racquet sports but pays far less.
    However, in any sports where sports betting is involved, I would not naively assume all is nice & dandy.
    Located where? In every country in the world where skaters train? Every city (because Vancouver and Montreal, for example, are very far apart despite being in the same country). Are the doctors flying out to the skaters. or are the skaters coming to them? Who pays for it? Are the doctors equally qualified in the different countries? And then it's not going to be the same doctor every time in all likelihood. What if two different doctors make opposite decisions about similar cases? Does this team of doctors include psychologists or psychiatrists to deal with mental health issues? Does it include experts in all sorts of different injuries available in each location?

    Logistically, it just doesn't make sense. Reading these suggestions, it really seems like this would cause more problems than it solves and be a recipe for controversy.

    Let's look at this season: we've had 7 WD spots not filled
    - Papadakis/Cizeron (NHK, ~3 days before) - Guillaume got a mild injury on the Wednesday before they WD (~8 days before the event) - last minute, suggested new policy wouldn't prevent it
    - Chock/Bates (CoR, ~8 days) - this was related to her recovery from surgery, so they could have known earlier and WD, but they did WD earlier before FIN, so this could have been less expected due to aggravating it or something, and this WD was 7-8 days before the draw
    - Alexey Erokhov (FIN, ~3 days) - very close, but we have no details, so hard to say whether this would have made a difference. He had already done a CS, so he was skating this season
    - Elena Radionova (SA, ~4 days) - very close, hard to say if she should have known, WD from the FS of a Russian Cup event 1-2 weeks before, so maybe
    - Nicole Schott (FIN, CoR, ~3 days for both) - this is the best argument for the point imo. She may have had super valid reasons, but she'd WD from several events, so maybe she should have known earlier for the 2nd GP at least
    - Karen Chen (CoR, ~4 days) - like C/B, this is likely longer-term injury related, but also like them she WD from her first event earlier, so it could have been a late setback or flair up

    P/C we know was a last minute injury, so their case doesn't really fit this imo. Elena and Alexey both WD last minute, but had already competed, so conceivably could be last minute issues. We really have 3 cases of people who've been out with longer-term injuries here, and in two of those cases they had WD from the first event early enough for replacements (and for C/B the 2nd WD wasn't super last minute), so they must have been at least more hopeful about making it to the 2nd event. So let's say it led to 3-4 more spots being filled (or not if the hosts chose not to) - is that really worth it?

    I'm not counting Veronik Mallet's spot at Skate Canada because she was there and then aggravated an old injury in the practices. And people have mentioned Gabby Daleman, but she WD from NHK ~10 days ahead of time and her spot was filled. So these proposals would not really have affected that anyways. Denney/Frazier also WD and as of yet their spot at IdF has not been filled. They WD ~9 days before the event and competed at their first, so this is a recent thing.

  4. #1904
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    Quote Originally Posted by SnowWhite View Post
    Located where? In every country in the world where skaters train? Every city (because Vancouver and Montreal, for example, are very far apart despite being in the same country). Are the doctors flying out to the skaters. or are the skaters coming to them? Who pays for it? Are the doctors equally qualified in the different countries? And then it's not going to be the same doctor every time in all likelihood. What if two different doctors make opposite decisions about similar cases? Does this team of doctors include psychologists or psychiatrists to deal with mental health issues? Does it include experts in all sorts of different injuries available in each location?

    Logistically, it just doesn't make sense. Reading these suggestions, it really seems like this would cause more problems than it solves and be a recipe for controversy.

    Let's look at this season: we've had 7 WD spots not filled
    - Papadakis/Cizeron (NHK, ~3 days before) - Guillaume got a mild injury on the Wednesday before they WD (~8 days before the event) - last minute, suggested new policy wouldn't prevent it
    - Chock/Bates (CoR, ~8 days) - this was related to her recovery from surgery, so they could have known earlier and WD, but they did WD earlier before FIN, so this could have been less expected due to aggravating it or something, and this WD was 7-8 days before the draw
    - Alexey Erokhov (FIN, ~3 days) - very close, but we have no details, so hard to say whether this would have made a difference. He had already done a CS, so he was skating this season
    - Elena Radionova (SA, ~4 days) - very close, hard to say if she should have known, WD from the FS of a Russian Cup event 1-2 weeks before, so maybe
    - Nicole Schott (FIN, CoR, ~3 days for both) - this is the best argument for the point imo. She may have had super valid reasons, but she'd WD from several events, so maybe she should have known earlier for the 2nd GP at least
    - Karen Chen (CoR, ~4 days) - like C/B, this is likely longer-term injury related, but also like them she WD from her first event earlier, so it could have been a late setback or flair up

    P/C we know was a last minute injury, so their case doesn't really fit this imo. Elena and Alexey both WD last minute, but had already competed, so conceivably could be last minute issues. We really have 3 cases of people who've been out with longer-term injuries here, and in two of those cases they had WD from the first event early enough for replacements (and for C/B the 2nd WD wasn't super last minute), so they must have been at least more hopeful about making it to the 2nd event. So let's say it led to 3-4 more spots being filled (or not if the hosts chose not to) - is that really worth it?

    I'm not counting Veronik Mallet's spot at Skate Canada because she was there and then aggravated an old injury in the practices. And people have mentioned Gabby Daleman, but she WD from NHK ~10 days ahead of time and her spot was filled. So these proposals would not really have affected that anyways. Denney/Frazier also WD and as of yet their spot at IdF has not been filled. They WD ~9 days before the event and competed at their first, so this is a recent thing.
    Yes, every country or every city. Or just the team doctor/specialist of the skater if ISU can trust the doctor. As another poster already stated, ISU does require a valid reason, so medical certs by right should be required.

    If they cant decide, decide last min(less than 10 days), without Dr's report, ie no valid reason, just pay up withdrawal fees. Dont have to impose large amount, just enough so that the skaters, their coaches, etc will actually sit down & decide before deadline.

    It is actually to foster a better image of figure skating. Rather than 'Oh, figure skating they can just simply withdraw last minute. Other sports we cant do that'. Other than badminton, I follow 2 other Olympic sports, all of which have dont have that much last min withdrawals. They have a system in place to curb this kind of things.

    A lot has been said abt the reasons why they dont withdraw earlier.
    How abt those on the substitute list? They dont get a chance at GP competition cos someone else withdrew too late.

  5. #1905
    On the Ice DenissVFan's Avatar
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    Maybe ISU could name concrete alternates for each GP (at least one per GP per discipline). It'd be ideal to go by SB but sometimes practicalities may interfere, so host feds could decide who would be the easiest to get at the eleventh hour. For example, when it comes to Rostelecom, at least four of the athletes that could be taken into consideration — Lindfors (FIN), Peltonen (FIN), Östlund (SWE), Algotsson (SWE) – were at Europeans in Russia earlier this year. Maybe their visas are still valid? (They might not be but you get my meaning – find somebody eligible who could come at a short notice).

    I'm not in favour of fines for skaters. Something should be done about the selection process first.

  6. #1906
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    If they cant decide, decide last min(less than 10 days), without Dr's report, ie no valid reason, just pay up withdrawal fees. Dont have to impose large amount, just enough so that the skaters, their coaches, etc will actually sit down & decide before deadline.
    So skaters would get invited to an event and then fined for being unable to compete? That's like throwing a party and telling your guests you'll bill them for the food they didn't eat if they get an attack of gastro on the night and can't make it.

    Not to mention, a 'small amount' is relative. What if handing over that 'small amount' means the skater who had to default out of the invitational then can't afford to travel to a later competition their Federation has assigned them to? Is it okay to damage their standing with their Federation just to punish them for an inconvenience?

  7. #1907
    Bona Fide Member atsumiri's Avatar
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    there are like 100+ reasons for the last minute WD. Cold, flu, head/stomach pain, old injuries, family problems, skates problems and so on.

    The other issues with alternates. money. Organizer of each event are providing plane tickets, hotels, food. For skater and his team. Money is a big issue in this sport. For host country and for skaters. We all remember plastic medals and skaters who can't afford travel costs.
    It would be nice to live in a world when we don't need to care about expenses.. but...

  8. #1908
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    Quote Originally Posted by atsumiri View Post
    there are like 100+ reasons for the last minute WD. Cold, flu, head/stomach pain, old injuries, family problems, skates problems and so on.

    The other issues with alternates. money. Organizer of each event are providing plane tickets, hotels, food. For skater and his team. Money is a big issue in this sport. For host country and for skaters. We all remember plastic medals and skaters who can't afford travel costs.
    It would be nice to live in a world when we don't need to care about expenses.. but...
    True, that's why I suggested that hosts could choose the most convenient solution. Presumably they've already paid for the tickets and hotel rooms. The easiest solution would be to invite a skater from the same country as the one who withdrew (but then we may have visa issues etc.). If not, pick one who'd be the cheapest to get (training in the country where the event takes place / in a neighbouring country etc.).

    Of course it is the host feds who pay for the events but they also earn money from them and we could argue that spectators paid to see 12 ladies not 10.

  9. #1909
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harriet View Post
    So skaters would get invited to an event and then fined for being unable to compete? That's like throwing a party and telling your guests you'll bill them for the food they didn't eat if they get an attack of gastro on the night and can't make it.

    Not to mention, a 'small amount' is relative. What if handing over that 'small amount' means the skater who had to default out of the invitational then can't afford to travel to a later competition their Federation has assigned them to? Is it okay to damage their standing with their Federation just to punish them for an inconvenience?
    It is not a small inconvenience for the skater who didnt otherwise didnt get to go compete in that GP. Who might do well enough for him/her to get selected to represent his/her country at WC.

    The Fed then should ensure the skaters/coaches make the decision on time. That should be a no brainer. A later competition definitely costs more than USD100, the proposed withdrawal fee. Even my country, a non skating 3rd world country , where the skater funds himself, the skater has enough funds for that.

    It is certainly not a small inconvenience for other sports cos it means an opportunity to earn ranking points. Precious ranking pts to qualify for World Championships. Hence why late withdrawals are fined, it could mean losing a WC spot for the substitute who didnt get to do due to other people's procrastination.

  10. #1910
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    Even my country, a non skating 3rd world country , where the skater funds himself, the skater has enough funds for that.
    Talk to Donovan Carrillo about funds, the lack thereof, and Federations that do nothing to help make up that lack.

    And it's a simple matter of principle. You don't fine somebody for not being able to make it to an invitational tournament when you're the one who issued the invitation. Especially when a good proportion of those invited to each event were invited because, let's be honest, they fill up the ranks without threatening the host Federation's skaters while still putting on a decent enough show for telly. Honestly, given that, the host federations should be paying all invited skaters, not charging them. Most of those invited will never see any prize money in this sport in their entire careers and sometimes the invitation is akin to an insult: here, aren't you flattered, you're good enough to be filler.

  11. #1911
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harriet View Post
    Talk to Donovan Carrillo about funds, the lack thereof, and Federations that do nothing to help make up that lack.

    And it's a simple matter of principle. You don't fine somebody for not being able to make it to an invitational tournament when you're the one who issued the invitation. Especially when a good proportion of those invited to each event were invited because, let's be honest, they fill up the ranks without threatening the host Federation's skaters while still putting on a decent enough show for telly. Honestly, given that, the host federations should be paying all invited skaters, not charging them. Most of those invited will never see any prize money in this sport in their entire careers and sometimes the invitation is akin to an insult: here, aren't you flattered, you're good enough to be filler.
    On the contrary, it is considered an honor for my country's skater when he finally got invited to GP event.
    1) He gets more ranking points at GP than a Challenger event. Important in terms improving world standings for WC qualification.
    2) Expenses paid for by the host. Whats not to like?
    Before, he would have to enter more Challenger events to rake up ranking points.
    One of his goals before this was to be 'promoted' to GP event in order to get better standings for WC.
    It may not as important to you but it certainly is to the skater.

    On principle wise, well, its fully paid for by the host. It's like I invite you to my house, pay for your food, your transport, your hotel stay. On top of that, you get free membership points or extra annual leave with your employer. And you dont even have the courtesy to tell me early you cant come. I still have to pay for the hotel and food.

    next time I will never invite you again. That's just me, if its the housewife aunties, you'll get a tongue lashing face to face, word will get round to people from 300km away.

  12. #1912
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    Personally, I think Russia invited a few of these athletes anticipating that they would withdraw and make the path easier for a few homefield athletes. (We all knew Chock & Bates were a big question mark even back in June).

    And I'd say the U.S. likely anticipated the same thing a couple years ago when they invited Sui & Han. (And we all knew she'd had surgery on both feet).

    I'm sure sometimes hosts--including both Russia and the U.S.--are very disappointed by certain withdrawals. But not always.

  13. #1913
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    Chafik Besseghier has withdrawn from IdF. https://isu.org/docman-documents-lin...-6-events/file

  14. #1914
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    Quelle surprise. No one has seen Chafik in ages. But that's the French Fed's problem---they picked him knowing he wasn't going to show, so it isn't likely that spot will be filled.

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