2018-19 U.S. Ladies' figure skating

Mathman said:

From Toyota's point of view, I don't think it's the currency of Karen's achievements that are what they care about. I don't think the ad is targeted especially at figure skating fans. Here she is equal parts hard-working athlete, talented superstar, pretty girl next door, and glamorous diva. Buy a Toyota and you can be just like her! (Or attract a girl friend that is just like her.)



I think Ashley Wagner would be a good choice to promote the Mirai. :yes:

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Also Karen's sponsorship/ad is with the Southern California Toyota Dealers not with the brand as a whole so she is a good choice for this area and fits in with the branding message.

Top 10 ISU Int. Scores (Junior Ladies):
1. Alexandra Trusova, 221.44
2. Alena Kostornaia, 217.98
3. Anna Shcherbakova, 205.39
4. Ting Cui, 199.79
5. Yuna Shiraiwa, 191.46
6. Yuhana Yokoi, 184.09
7. Young You, 183.98
8. Haein Lee, 180.48
9. Yi Christy Leung, 177.22
10. Anastasiia Arkhipova, 170.56

This only includes those competing at Junior Worlds in March, so no Ye-Lim or Kanysheva.

Mathman said:

I think Ashley Wagner would be a good choice to promote the Mirai. :yes:

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I assume your reply was tongue in cheek, Wagner promoting (a) Mirai, but still, going into 2018, Wagner already had Bridgestone, Dick's Supporting Goods, Nike, Proctor and Gamble, Samsung, Zico Water, and already some kind of deal with Toyota already. I don't think Nagasu had anything until 2018.

tothepointe said:

Russia "fixed" it's ladies by getting rid of the mismatch between talented skaters and the ability to afford it. However it comes at a cost. You MUST perform or you no longer get to train. It's like the ballet academies there. They only want the best so if you are there you must work hard, do as your told, perform well or you are sent home.

I don't think we would like to have that system to be honest.

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That’s not exactly true. Nobody is “sent home”, but only top 6 from nationals becomes the team and receives maximum funding. However there are are clubs that have maximum funding anyway, such as Sotskova and Tsurskaya club CSKA .

The first reason for Russian success is making it affordable at crucial stage-Novices and pre-Novices, and in Russia before 2011 they recioved little to no funding which made many 10-11-12 olds end their careers prematurely.

Second reason is relevant to USA: encoaraging triple-triples. How many years ago USA started to do that? Isn’t that interview with USFSA president was last year or something? But also important is underrotation control, as there are no notion in Russia like in USA that skate without falls but with URs is clean. Like, Tom Z whole philosophy is getting underrotated jump around rather than to fall, and then his skaters go compete internationally they get dinged like crazy. In Russia they wouldn’t get away with it at lower levels.

dippy said:

That’s not exactly true. Nobody is “sent home”, but only top 6 from nationals becomes the team and receives maximum funding. However there are are clubs that have maximum funding anyway, such as Sotskova and Tsurskaya club CSKA .

The first reason for Russian success is making it affordable at crucial stage-Novices and pre-Novices, and in Russia before 2011 they recioved little to no funding which made many 10-11-12 olds end their careers prematurely.

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Thanks for the information.

Questions:
Do skaters only get accepted into the beginner training at young ages, and are they expected to keep up with some minimum expectations for their age?

E.g., is a 10-11-12 year old expected to already be working on at least double axels if not triples? Are they expected to train at least X hours per week?

If they're doing less than that, but they still love skating, are there opportunities for them to train fewer hours per week and to enter competitions with only double or single jumps?

What if they first fall in love with skating at 10-11-12? Are there opportunities for beginner skaters at those ages? And then for double-jump-only skaters as teenagers? Even if they get no funding and have to pay for it all from their families' resources?

Second reason is relevant to USA: encoaraging triple-triples. How many years ago USA started to do that? Isn’t that interview with USFSA president was last year or something?

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Yes, the US bonuses for harder jumps have only been around for a couple of years.

I remember that Russia started giving bonuses for harder jumps at senior level (e.g., quads and triple axels, and triple-triples for ladies) in the early years of IJS. Are they still doing that? Did they also have bonuses for solo triples and double axels at lower Russian competitions?

But also important is underrotation control, as there are no notion in Russia like in USA that skate without falls but with URs is clean.

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Officially there is no notion that a skate without URs is "clean." Because there is no official notion of "clean."
Underrotated jumps get called as < and get lower GOE, usually on the negative side. So if a skater can land rotated triples there's a higher upside to consistently rotating and sometimes falling than to aiming to always underrotate.

More often, jumps that skaters fall on are also underrotated.

However, where US is now offering bonuses at the lower levels where skaters are first learning higher level jumps, they can qualify for the bonuses even if they underrotate and even if they fall. The lower base values (for underrotation), GOE reductions, and fall bonuses still apply. The bonuses is for attempting and rotating or almost rotating the harder jump.

If the Russian bonus system went away by 2011 (when the < vs. << distinction was introduced) then Russia may not have had to make a decision about whether to apply bonuses to underrotated < but non-downgraded jumps. If the bonuses were/are still around, then what were/are the criteria for earning them?

As US skaters move up the levels, they no longer earn bonuses for at all for jumps that are now more common at those levels. E.g., juveniles and intermediates earn a bonus for double axels, novices don't. Intermediates and novices earn bonuses for triple-triples, juniors and seniors don't. (As of the last year, juniors earn bonuses for triple axels and quads; seniors don't.)

gkelly said:

I remember that Russia started giving bonuses for harder jumps at senior level (e.g., quads and triple axels, and triple-triples for ladies) in the early years of IJS. Are they still doing that? Did they also have bonuses for solo triples and double axels at lower Russian competitions?

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yes they still did at least in junior they get bonus for quads, i forgot about triple axel though and idk how the system works in novice category. also they give bonus for spin, if it get +2 GOE at least from all judges (when it still+3 GOE system) idk how they trasnslate that to +5 system though. So the coach and skater not only developing jumps but also spins as well which is great idea. They also have jumping competition thing, where skaters just do jump iirc, not sure how it works though.

skatenewbie said:

yes they still did at least in junior they get bonus for quads, i forgot about triple axel though and idk how the system works in novice category. also they give bonus for spin, if it get +2 GOE at least from all judges (when it still+3 GOE system) idk how they trasnslate that to +5 system though. So the coach and skater not only developing jumps but also spins as well which is great idea. They also have jumping competition thing, where skaters just do jump iirc, not sure how it works though.

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The jumping competition is elements. They get two tries to do a solo jump and then two for a jump combo, and the best of each is counted. Then they do a spin and a step sequence. It’s not at every competition though.

For spin bonuses, they must have a factored goe of 1 or greater I believe.

Seniors get bonuses for quads as well in ladies. I’m not positive but I believe that triple axels receive the bonus as well.

SkateSkates said:

Too expensive. Unless you can find a sponsor, shelling out upwards of $30-$50k/year for elite training is cost prohibitive for most. Plus no opportunity for college scholarships.

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I spent my life in figure skating, and my kids chose-swimming. Cheap, and the best thing about it-if you touch first, you win. I do not miss subjective judging and politics of figure skating. And yes, the college opportunities with swimming were a thrill-hundreds of recruiting letters arriving every day. In the U.S., the cost of skating is prohibitive, rink time is devoted to lucrative hockey leagues, there is very little opportunity except for the highest level of skater-and even then, the sport is not popular enough to pay off as an end game. There are also many many competitive sports to choose from in the U.S.-with the end game of perhaps doing that sport Div.1. On a personal level, my kids were not going to drop out of school, or do an 'online school' so they might pursue a sport all day. Especially when, for most, it comes to nothing in the end. It used to make my parents very angry that Regionals, Sectionals and Nationals entailed missing weeks of school, when those competitions could have been scheduled around holidays, or standard school breaks. At the time I thought it was worth it, now as an adult, I see that it was not.

LiamForeman said:

Probably more like 70-100K for elite. Who can afford that? In America, it is just too expensive. I could probably "swing" that if I had an elite skater, but I wouldn't. I'd rather have money saved for college and a nice retirement. I understand that elite skating is not just results based. It does teach a child self discipline, hard work, and being excellent at something is something to be very proud of. But for that cost?? Go into tennis, which is not cheap either, but MUCH cheaper, and you can get a college scholarship. A good friend of mine was a great tennis player, and her parents put ALOT of money into it. She received a full tennis scholarship at a top school, and her parents actually SAVED money by putting all those thousands into her tennis, if she were to go to that same school without scholarship. Plus, she was well known in the city she grew up in, had an aura of success about her, and deserved her healthy ego. Skating just doesn't offer that, unless you are an Alysa Liu.

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I've heard $100/k per year to reach a level where one might be competitive at Nationals. But what if you have a passion and a talent and a love for skating and hate tennis and are not any good at it? Personally I stink at any sport involving balls and any team sport I can think of off the top of my head. I did softball for a season, hated it, was horrible at it, my parents forced me to continue to teach me to complete what I had started. It was a rule that teams had to play each girl at least 3 innings, so they would stick me out in left field and hope no one hit anything anywhere near me. By the way this was 1976 and we all got a trophy, so participation trophies are definitely not new. Mine was most team spirit or some such nonsense. I was fortunate enough to be able to indulge my passion for Equestrian, which was much more accessible at the time (late 70's/early 80's) than now. I was able to participate and compete through 4-H and Pony Club and local shows - I was not going to make the Olympics. I used the money I made babysitting and working at a horse farm in the summers. That's just not possible now from what I can tell, unless one owns property on which they can keep a horse. I was going to try to get back into it as an adult but believe it or not, Adult Figure Skating is cheaper by a large amount. Kind of bummed that my alma mater now has an Equestrian team. I would have loved that!

I hate seeing skaters who have to have GoFundMes and beg for money to continue their training. Personally, and I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but I believe that if a skater is at a level where they are representing the USA that should be their job and they should get money for it from the government. I don't even think the Michael Weiss Foundation is around anymore. Also, from talking to Mirai at Nationals, she thinks there should be a different path for skaters to choose from other than Worlds/Olympics, and she believes that should be collegiate skating (I know that it exists, but she meant as a scholarship team sport like NCAA Women's and Men's gymnastics.) I wish I had had more time with her to talk about this but I was monopolizing enough of her time already. I know this topic is hotly debated on these boards from time to time, but FWIW Mirai believes it is possible.

Who knows if the next Michelle Kwan, who so many have been looking for for years now, never got to start skating because they were not in a financial position to do so? Heck the only reason Mirai became a skater (she was a very talented golfer at 4, apparently) was because one day it rained in Southern California and her mother decided to take the kids skating instead. If it hadn't rained that day I would never have heard of her because she would have probably been an insanely talented women's golfer and I don't follow golf at all.

Just my rambly, been up two days with an insanely painful toothache thoughts.

katymay said:

I spent my life in figure skating, and my kids chose-swimming. Cheap, and the best thing about it-if you touch first, you win. I do not miss subjective judging and politics of figure skating. And yes, the college opportunities with swimming were a thrill-hundreds of recruiting letters arriving every day. In the U.S., the cost of skating is prohibitive, rink time is devoted to lucrative hockey leagues, there is very little opportunity except for the highest level of skater-and even then, the sport is not popular enough to pay off as an end game. There are also many many competitive sports to choose from in the U.S.-with the end game of perhaps doing that sport Div.1. On a personal level, my kids were not going to drop out of school, or do an 'online school' so they might pursue a sport all day. Especially when, for most, it comes to nothing in the end. It used to make my parents very angry that Regionals, Sectionals and Nationals entailed missing weeks of school, when those competitions could have been scheduled around holidays, or standard school breaks. At the time I thought it was worth it, now as an adult, I see that it was not.

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First you cannot choose which sport you child will be interested in. I always thought mine would choose swimming but my child chose ice skating. So we do that. Swimming is not a "cheap" activity because you need a facility and those are expensive to maintain. Yes it cheaper than ice skating but everything is relative. Have you ever noticed that for the most part, swimmers come from more affluent families? That should be a good indicator about the expenses involved.

My husband when to college on 4-year scholarship to a Division I school. He once commented that his senior year he spent the night in 26 different hotel rooms (that is ALOT of missed classes). He is very proud he graduated in 4 years without taking summer school - not a lot of 4-year Division I scholarship athletes can say that. He also said that unless we were desperate, he would rather we pay than send our kids on college on one of those scholarships. He was a swimmer - All American and met the Olympic cuts. After he graduated, he did go in a pool for about 10+ years. We met year later at a pool - he was lap swimming and I was teaching swim lessons.

While ice skating may not offer college scholarships, I think ice skating does offer more opportunities to make money than alot of other sports - Disney on Ice and cruise ships want skaters. Long-term skaters have a realistic shot of getting one of those positions (we have known several). Some kids go to college and then the Peace Corps - I see another option as college then Disney on Ice which allows to the skater to travel while earning some money.

Also, you make alot more giving private lessons in ice skating than in swimming. I taught private lesson through the county and I know how much the swimming parents pay compared to how much I pay for ice skating private lessons. Coaching can be made into an income stream during the college years.

moonvine said:

I've heard $100/k per year to reach a level where one might be competitive at Nationals.

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I think that estimate is too high.

Is the skater home schooled because of skating? If so, then some would say that is a training expense; I would not.
How far are you traveling? I know that some parents will fly their skaters to train with certain coaches about once a month. Are they including those flights, hotels, rental cars?
Some skaters live with host families. Are those expense included?

Actual training expenses I would put closer to $30-$40k for Juveniles and $60-$75k for Seniors.
My estimate should include the choreographer, the costumes (within reason), ice time, coaching fees, off ice training, and competition fees and hotels associated with the competitions through Regionals.
It does not cover any airfare or rental cars because that become very specific to the venues.

moonvine said:

I don't even think the Michael Weiss Foundation is around anymore.

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The show is gone.

concorde said:

I think that estimate is too high.

Is the skater home schooled because of skating? If so, then some would say that is a training expense; I would not.
How far are you traveling? I know that some parents will fly their skaters to train with certain coaches about once a month. Are they including those flights, hotels, rental cars?
Some skaters live with host families. Are those expense included?

Actual training expenses I would put closer to $30-$40k for Juveniles and $60-$75k for Seniors.
My estimate should include the choreographer, the costumes (within reason), ice time, coaching fees, off ice training, and competition fees and hotels associated with the competitions through Regionals.
It does not cover any airfare or rental cars because that become very specific to the venues.



The show is gone.

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I don't know. It was in a post in the Lutz Corner made by a former elite skater. I don't know what it did or didn't include. I could go back and look. $75k is a lot. It's much more than I make in a year. But I don't have any kids, either.

Too bad about the Michael Weiss Foundation. I believe he had given away in excess of $850,000. Oh well, I guess nothing good lasts forever.

moonvine said:

I don't know. It was in a post in the Lutz Corner made by a former elite skater. I don't know what it did or didn't include. I could go back and look. $75k is a lot. It's much more than I make in a year. But I don't have any kids, either.

Too bad about the Michael Weiss Foundation. I believe he had given away in excess of $850,000. Oh well, I guess nothing good lasts forever.

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I know who made that estimate and I am sure she was referring to Senior levels costs.

As a skater moves up, their training costs increase because gaining full rotation in bigger is just more difficult. Lots of people talk about how expensive a 2A is. That is nothing compared to the cost of some of the more difficult triples. Hate to see how expensive a quad is - I am sure Jason Brown can attest to that.

readernick said:

She has star power( no pun intended). I root for her because she is cute and likeable. But, if the federation really wants her to succeed she needs a new coach who can help her with her SS, posture, and jumps. She has qualities that aren’t being fully developed.

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I love Starr Andrews! So talented. But this season it seemed she was undertrained.

Sorry, jumping late into discussion.

It's true that the costs of getting into figure skating are prohibitive for many. However, it's not just about costs.

It's also about not allowing our kids to be treated too harshly or made into invalids, in the name of mass-producing champions for the nation.

I don't think that should change, and if it does, I don't think we'd like it. Sports should be for pleasure and benefit for the kids, not for national pride.

Look at gymnastics and where that attitude had led them. They won gold medals, but also let their little girls be abused. Was it worth it? Not at all.

Too bad the Michael Weiss foundation isn’t around anymore. He helped Nathan get his first pair of skates (was previously wearing his sister’s old ones) and with scholarships. https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...es-usa-hopes-olympic-skating-gold/1089579001/

“Michael gave me money to kick-start my young career,” Chen said. “Honestly, without that, it would be impossible for me to get to where I am now.”

Casual said:

Sorry, jumping late into discussion.

It's true that the costs of getting into figure skating are prohibitive for many. However, it's not just about costs.

It's also about not allowing our kids to be treated too harshly or made into invalids, in the name of mass-producing champions for the nation.

I don't think that should change, and if it does, I don't think we'd like it. Sports should be for pleasure and benefit for the kids, not for national pride.

Look at gymnastics and where that attitude had led them. They won gold medals, but also let their little girls be abused. Was it worth it? Not at all.

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I don't think anyone wants any children (or adults for that matter) to be abused. I just think there has to be a better way than Gofundmes and begging for money, and if your family doesn't have money to begin with, too bad for you. If I had children who wanted to go into figure skating, it just couldn't happen, so when I have a few extra dollars I will give it so someone else's kids might be able to skate. Apparently Nathan has said if it wasn't for Michael Weiss he would not be where he is today, and guess what, that foundation is no more. Some kids want to be champions, while others just want to skate recreationally. I used to do karate and one of the core beliefs of that style of karate was that money should not keep a person from doing karate, so we did fundraisers and most of the teachers donated their time to teach and we made it happen. Obviously it is far cheaper to maintain a dojo than it is a skating rink. I don't have the answers and don't pretend to, but I don't think the answer should be "If you are fortunate enough to be born into a family with money and have talent, passion and desire you may make it to elite level, but if you are unfortunate enough to be born into a family with little money and have passion, talent and desire you will not make it to elite level, because the money is not there."

moonvine said:

... if it wasn't for Michael Weiss he would not be where he is today, and guess what, that foundation is no more.

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Is the Michael Weiss Foundation out of business?

Mathman said:

Is the Michael Weiss Foundation out of business?

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From what everyone can tell, yes. The show is no more. https://www.michaelweiss.org/ now goes to a generic fitness site with the contact me section going to an address in Ontario. Perhaps the show was no longer bringing in enough to make it worth it? I just don't know.

Hopefully for the future our wonderful Nathan will set up a similar foundation after he graduates, works, and continues to skate!!