2018-19 U.S. Ladies' figure skating

chuckm · Jan 18, 2019

In the SP, the Intermediate ladies got 2 bonus points for a 3z or 3f with no edge call or <<, and got 1 bonus point for a 2a, 3s, 3lo or 3t with no <<. The bonus is given even if they fall on the jump. Falls count -0.5 each

The top two Intermediate Ladies SP:

Lindsey Thorngren: 53.74 (34.08+19.66) bonus points 4 3z+3t<, 3f!, 2a
Isabeau Levito: 51.85 (34.81+17.04) bonus points 5 3s+3t, 3lo, 2a

Lindsey is older than Isabeau, who won the 2018 Juvenile title. Lindsey was 6th as a Juvenile in 2017. Lindsey and Isabeau finished 1-2 at 2019 Eastern Sectionals.

ice coverage · Jan 18, 2019

sheetz said:
Do you happen to know her age? My understanding is that juvenile competitors can be of a pretty wide range of ages. So a 12 year old with that score would be a lot less impressive than a 9 year old.

Elana said:
I don’t know her age, this is the first I have heard of her, she was pretty tiny, but you never know. Icenetwork always did articles for all the level and usually said ages, maybe they’ll do that on fanzone too?

Juvenile champion Kanon Smith :bow:

is age ten, per the recap on USFS fanzone.

Two other juvenile medalists are age twelve. The bronze medalist's age was not given.

(BTW, Kanon's choreographer is Drew Meekins, who congratulated her on Instastory.)

MarinHondas · Jan 18, 2019

Elana said:
I'm kind of glad they aren't having lower level nationals anymore, though I love watching it. I definitely see your points, I guess after reading them, I don't really have a problem with the juvs doing one triple. It's more how do you jump from one triple in juv to whatever triples you want in intermediate and above? The girls who were on the podium in juv are obviously both young and talented and will continue to top the podium, but to me they were almost "too good" for juv. Alysa Liu and Kassie Carpentier both won intermediate with just a triple sal 3 and 4 years ago, now it seems like girls are almost staying in a lower just to win. I'm not trying to unjustify anyone's wins, Kanon 100% deserved to win this morning and is very talented, but the only place to show that talent for her is in juvenile because she isn't quite good enough for intermediate nationals yet. However, I feel that some of the girls in intermediate could be succesful in novice, and some of the novices in junior because all the levels are so similar. If they weren't doing away with nationals next year, I would wish they would put more guidelines and rules in to dicrepensate between the levels. I'm not sure if that made any sense. I just wish there was a better system in place to gauge the growth and talent of these skaters, so the ones with exceptional skating at the right ages could really shine. I'm hoping this is what USFS is trying to achieve with the system they will be using in this coming year, the sport is moving forward and I think they are trying their best to stay on top of that.

I completely agree. It's good they are pushing the tech content but it does seem like the top juvenile and intermediate are skating "down". Not to say they don't deserve to win! They do! It's all also good as an athlete to push yourself to a higher level though, especially when it's pretty clear that you are ready. I like the example of Alysa that you brought up. Shes doing 3a now and only did 3sal as an intermediate. I worry these girls aren't pacing themselves.

Anyways,

BIG CONGRATS TO ALL! Such talents these ladies are!:clapper::clapper:

Charlotte 71 · Jan 18, 2019

Elana said:
I'm kind of glad they aren't having lower level nationals anymore, though I love watching it. I definitely see your points, I guess after reading them, I don't really have a problem with the juvs doing one triple. It's more how do you jump from one triple in juv to whatever triples you want in intermediate and above? The girls who were on the podium in juv are obviously both young and talented and will continue to top the podium, but to me they were almost "too good" for juv. Alysa Liu and Kassie Carpentier both won intermediate with just a triple sal 3 and 4 years ago, now it seems like girls are almost staying in a lower just to win. I'm not trying to unjustify anyone's wins, Kanon 100% deserved to win this morning and is very talented, but the only place to show that talent for her is in juvenile because she isn't quite good enough for intermediate nationals yet. However, I feel that some of the girls in intermediate could be succesful in novice, and some of the novices in junior because all the levels are so similar. If they weren't doing away with nationals next year, I would wish they would put more guidelines and rules in to dicrepensate between the levels. I'm not sure if that made any sense. I just wish there was a better system in place to gauge the growth and talent of these skaters, so the ones with exceptional skating at the right ages could really shine. I'm hoping this is what USFS is trying to achieve with the system they will be using in this coming year, the sport is moving forward and I think they are trying their best to stay on top of that.

I wish they were still having Novice at Nationals though. Historically, Novice has always been included, since way back (the 1960s at least), and Juvenile and Intermediate only had a separate Nationals event in the 90s and then were added to big Nationals a few years ago. It used to be Juvenile went to regionals, Intermediate could go through sectionals, and Novice could go to Nationals, so the skaters would build up to the bigger events as they progressed through the levels. It seems like skaters at the Novice level will be missing valuable big-event experience and will then be thrown in when they're Juniors. Wouldn't more experience be better for anybody talented enough to qualify? It just seems like they're going too far in cutting back.

Elana · Jan 18, 2019

MarinHondas said:
I completely agree. It's good they are pushing the tech content but it does seem like the top juvenile and intermediate are skating "down". Not to say they don't deserve to win! They do! It's all also good as an athlete to push yourself to a higher level though, especially when it's pretty clear that you are ready. I like the example of Alysa that you brought up. Shes doing 3a now and only did 3sal as an intermediate. I worry these girls aren't pacing themselves.

Anyways,

BIG CONGRATS TO ALL! Such talents these ladies are!:clapper::clapper:

This is how I see it too. Using Lindsey Thorngren as an example, she looks about 13 to me, maybe 14? So she's not super young, but at an age where she could potentially earn a JGP right? I just question for her sake why she would be in intermediate, is it just to win? This is already her second year in intermediate and she chose not to move up despite having all her triples. To me, the smarter move would've been to move up to novice (she probably would still be at Nats) if not even junior (I know no one skips levels, buttt), and work to refine her components and maybe URs, though she looked very strong to me. A 53 is a very respectable score, not just for intermediate, and I would bet it would place decently in higher levels as well. It is these cases where I wonder why she doesn't move up and try to make a name for herself in a level where she could be rewarded with international assignments, as she is clearly talented and deserving instead of staying in a level that doesn't see as much attention?

Elana · Jan 18, 2019

Charlotte 71 said:
I wish they were still having Novice at Nationals though. Historically, Novice has always been included, since way back (the 1960s at least), and Juvenile and Intermediate only had a separate Nationals event in the 90s and then were added to big Nationals a few years ago. It used to be Juvenile went to regionals, Intermediate could go through sectionals, and Novice could go to Nationals, so the skaters would build up to the bigger events as they progressed through the levels. It seems like skaters at the Novice level will be missing valuable big-event experience and will then be thrown in when they're Juniors. Wouldn't more experience be better for anybody talented enough to qualify? It just seems like they're going too far in cutting back.

In this case, maybe doing things more like the Russians would work? They don't have novice nats, there are other high level competitions though, but if you're of a certain age and still novice, you can qualify to junior nats. If USFS opens junior nationals to more than 12 girls, which would be in their favor, than these lower level skaters could qualify for experience if they are strong enough as novices, then when they are strong juniors they can aim for the podium with confidence. Just having junior nats might also push some girls to move up, as some of the current novice crop could be somewhat competitive in junior.

gkelly · Jan 18, 2019

Elana said:
It's more how do you jump from one triple in juv to whatever triples you want in intermediate and above?

Would it be better to jump from no triples to whatever triples you want?

now it seems like girls are almost staying in a lower just to win.

That's nothing new.

If they weren't doing away with nationals next year, I would wish they would put more guidelines and rules in to dicrepensate between the levels.

What would you recommend?

Keeping in mind that there are many many skaters at these levels who compete at regionals but who don't have a remote chance of moving on from there, especially for the girls. So the bottom limit of what's required at these levels is much lower than the top limit of what's allowed. And only a small handful at each level approach that top limit.

The biggest difference between juvenile and intermediate is that intermediates do short programs; juveniles don't.

The intermediate SP currently allows any combination from double-single up through triple-triple. (Double-double is by far the most common, and many are not fully rotated.)

Charlotte 71 said:
I wish they were still having Novice at Nationals though. Historically, Novice has always been included, since way back (the 1960s at least),

1930s, actually.

It seems like skaters at the Novice level will be missing valuable big-event experience and will then be thrown in when they're Juniors. Wouldn't more experience be better for anybody talented enough to qualify? It just seems like they're going too far in cutting back.

Elana said:
In this case, maybe doing things more like the Russians would work? They don't have novice nats, there are other high level competitions though, but if you're of a certain age and still novice, you can qualify to junior nats. If USFS opens junior nationals to more than 12 girls, which would be in their favor, than these lower level skaters could qualify for experience if they are strong enough as novices, then when they are strong juniors they can aim for the podium with confidence. Just having junior nats might also push some girls to move up, as some of the current novice crop could be somewhat competitive in junior.

This is what they're going to do as of next year.
The top 2 novices at sectionals (as opposed to the top 4 now) will be invited to compete in the junior event at Nationals.

This will be possible because the ISU will be making the program lengths for junior and advanced novice the same, so the US will follow suit.

There are currently more differences in short program requirements for junior vs. novice aside from just program length. I don't know if the ISU and therefore USFS will impose the junior requirements on novices as well (aside from allowing a solo single axel, probably), or if there will still be differences and US novices who qualify to juniors at Nationals will need to make some changes to their programs.

Elana · Jan 18, 2019

gkelly said:
What would you recommend?

Keeping in mind that there are many many skaters at these levels who compete at regionals but who don't have a remote chance of moving on from there, especially for the girls. So the bottom limit of what's required at these levels is much lower than the top limit of what's allowed. And only a small handful at each level approach that top limit.

What I would suggest would benefit the skaters who aren't as strong, obviously I know not everyone can do triples, I've competed at regionals many times in different levels.

I was meaning more age/jump requirements, though age is hard to judge, especially at the regional level. This would allow girls to move through the levels at an even pace and if they could do more than what was required, then they could move up further. I'm no expert on the rules so I'm not exactly sure what would be best. I would say that if you can only do one triple in juv, then when you move up to intermediate you shouldn't suddenly have to have all your triples. I would say no 3+3 combos in int. and only jump sal, toe, and loop and maybe only repeat one triple? Because it seems to me watching the intermediates tonight, they can either only do the easier triples sal/toe, or they go for the hard ones flip/lutz. For me, I think those harder triples should be allowed starting in novice. This is just my opinion, you can disagree, and honestly it doesn't matter that much because they are doing away with nationals in the future.

Seren · Jan 19, 2019

I'm not sure I understand the logic of limiting double axels and triples at lower levels- a part of what US figure skating has been doing the last decade is encourage skaters to develop these jumps earlier so we can compete with the rest of the world. We obviously don't want sandbagging- but there is a difference in quality between levels even if the jumps are the same.

Also- the second place Juvenile girl skates at my rink and is one of the hardest working skaters I've ever seen. The amount of improvement she has made in a year is extraordinary.

DanseMacabre · Jan 19, 2019

Seren said:
I'm not sure I understand the logic of limiting double axels and triples at lower levels- a part of what US figure skating has been doing the last decade is encourage skaters to develop these jumps earlier so we can compete with the rest of the world.

Yeah, if I recall correctly, there's been talk at USFS about how catering to the less technically advanced skaters at the lower levels has negatively impacted the US's ability to compete on the world stage. Those kids will eventually grow up after all. If they aren't encouraged to develop a deeper technical arsenal early on, it's going to be significantly harder for them to develop it later. I've participated in a variety of sports my whole life (including figure skating) and I don't get the logic behind holding young athletes back so less capable kids don't feel bad. Rules benefiting the skaters who aren't as strong don't actually help advance the sport.

Spirals for Miles · Jan 19, 2019

I'm excited by seeing all these triples at the lower level. Hopefully this will lead to many competitive skaters in the future

natsulian · Jan 19, 2019

Although skaters should heighten their technical prowess step by step and level by level, we should not compensate for the less technically advanced skaters simply because we have a few gifted ones that are blowing past what their age group is capable of. There will always be individuals, regardless of the sport or medium, that are faster, stronger, smarter, etc... but that does not mean we should create rules to suppress them to level the playing field. Let the ones that can already take to the skies fly and soar, but let the ones that need a little bit more assistance get the help they need to fly with the rest. In conclusion, I agree with the decision to let Juv. train and perform triples and to enable Inter. to include triple-triples in their programs. Any experience is better than no experience.

Also, we haven't had young skaters of Isobeau and Alysa's calibre (technically speaking) in a very long time and it is all very exciting. However, we should not be too hopeful or too negative because they are young and so much can happen in the span of four years. Nevertheless, I hope that they'll mature into exceptional skaters and accomplish whatever it is that they want to achieve.

crazydreamer · Jan 20, 2019

MarinHondas said:
That is a monsterous score for a juvenile lady. Looks like she did a triple toe and two double axels. I didn't watch, does she have potential in the artisic/musicality department? Hows her ss? (bearing in mind she's a juvenile lady ofc)

I think she is very musical, and at least as artistic as our current crop of seniors. Her last spin was amazing.

Elana · Jan 20, 2019

https://usfigureskatingfanzone.com/...ions-crowned-in-detroit.aspx?path=figureskate

Isabeau Levito plans to move to junior next season, ambitious, yet very smart move IMO. I hope to see Lindsay Thorngren do the same, I expect she will.

moonvine · Jan 20, 2019

Charlotte 71 said:
I wish they were still having Novice at Nationals though. Historically, Novice has always been included, since way back (the 1960s at least), and Juvenile and Intermediate only had a separate Nationals event in the 90s and then were added to big Nationals a few years ago. It used to be Juvenile went to regionals, Intermediate could go through sectionals, and Novice could go to Nationals, so the skaters would build up to the bigger events as they progressed through the levels. It seems like skaters at the Novice level will be missing valuable big-event experience and will then be thrown in when they're Juniors. Wouldn't more experience be better for anybody talented enough to qualify? It just seems like they're going too far in cutting back.

I agree.

natsulian · Jan 20, 2019

The Novice competition will also be exciting to watch. I believe we have one young lady attempting a 3Lz-3T in the short and an ambitious 3Lz-3Lo in the long. Best of luck to everyone.

Seren · Jan 20, 2019

I have been impressed by all the different levels here. So many promising skaters.

I think US figure skatings rule changes are starting to pay off. Encourage skaters to train and get comfortable with their triples earlier and then let them develop artistically and performance wise as they move up.

It’s also not like these skaters are being allowed to train triples all day. Coaches put limits on jumping to protect their athletes.

natsulian · Jan 20, 2019

Seren said:
I have been impressed by all the different levels here. So many promising skaters.

I think US figure skatings rule changes are starting to pay off. Encourage skaters to train and get comfortable with their triples earlier and then let them develop artistically and performance wise as they move up.

It’s also not like these skaters are being allowed to train triples all day. Coaches put limits on jumping to protect their athletes.

Could not agree more. If Alysa manages to pull off two clean skates with three 3A’s, I believe that it’ll truly inspire the younger girls and boys to start training and adding more challenging jumps AND spins. The future is definitely bright!

Bluediamonds09 · Jan 20, 2019

I have a lot of hopes and wishes for senior nationals this week that probably won’t come true, but here they are anyway:

1) Ting Cui gets in the top 4 with two clean skates and gets sent to 4CC.

2) Hannah Miller receives 60+ for her sp because she never has.

3) Courtney Hicks doesn’t bomb her sp.

4) Mariah Bell lands a clean 3-3.

5) Bradie and Mariah And Alysa all skate squeaky clean programs and only then is it decided who wins.

Tavi... · Jan 20, 2019

Wow at both Isabeau and Lindsay - such very different skaters, with such different strengths. Isabeau is still only 11 - it blows my mind how polished she is. Lindsay is a bit older (just turned 13) and has such nice flow over the ice in her footwork. And both attempting triple triples, and 3Zs. It’s too soon to know how well they will do at higher levels, but it’s good to see so much potential in these two and some of the other intermediate ladies.

2018-19 U.S. Ladies' figure skating

chuckm

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605

MarinHondas

Charlotte 71

Elana

Elana

gkelly

Elana

Seren

Wakabond Forever

DanseMacabre

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion

natsulian

crazydreamer

Elana

moonvine

All Hail Queen Gracie

natsulian

Seren

Wakabond Forever

natsulian

Bluediamonds09

Tavi...

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