2018-19 U.S. Ladies' figure skating

frida80 said:

.. I think Tom Z tells his skaters to do things before their ready. For example he probably told both Max and Mirai ... Likewise I suspect he told Ting ...

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For me, if someone thinks a coach "probably" told a skater something or that someone "suspects" the coach told a skater something, those "examples" (examples of speculation) mean exactly nothing.

Even if the "someone" is a longtime and serious observer of the sport.

If a coach were on the record saying the "something"s, that's a different story.

Ting talked about being tentative as to whether or not to move up to Seniors next season. I’m going to remain silently hopeful about her Junior Worlds placement considering Tom’s history of not molding great talents into great results. The closest Ting got to two clean programs was at Tallin where she had one fall per program. Hopefully Ting puts out two programs she’s proud of come Worlds. I know we say it’ll come with experience, but inconsistency has been plaguing Ting since her first year as a Junior and I think all this experience is very helpful and will hopefully work in her favor.

ice coverage said:

For me, if someone thinks a coach "probably" told a skater something or that someone "suspects" the coach told a skater something, those "examples" (examples of speculation) mean exactly nothing.

Even if the "someone" is a longtime and serious observer of the sport.

If a coach were on the record saying the "something"s, that's a different story.

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But he did say these things.

He said several times on Instagram that Mirai should do her 3A at nationals in 2017.

He said that Mirai was a dark horse for an individual bronze medal at the Olympics.

He just said in this article that Ting could get a medal at junior Worlds.

https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019...tings-junior-world-team-help-improve-results/

I can find even more instances when Tom talks like this. And it drives me crazy. All you have to do is look at Ting'a scores pre-national and you'll see that she could've won with two clean program.

I think about this. Just after Sasha lands her 4Lz, he shows a video of Young landing an 4Lz<?

I just can't with him...

frida80 said:

But he did say these things.

He said several times on Instagram that Mirai should do her 3A at nationals in 2017.

He said that Mirai was a dark horse for an individual bronze medal at the Olympics.

He just said in this article that Ting could get a medal at junior Worlds.

https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019...tings-junior-world-team-help-improve-results/

I can find even more instances when Tom talks like this. And it drives me crazy. All you have to do is look at Ting'a scores pre-national and you'll see that she could've won with two clean program.

I think about this. Just after Sasha lands her 4Lz, he shows a video of Young landing an 4Lz<?

I just can't with him...

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I am not going to bicker.

The second paragraph of your original post discussed things that you (by your own acknowledgment) merely imagine that TZ said. You do not know whether he actually said them. That was and is my issue.

ice coverage said:

I am not going to bicker.

The second paragraph of your original post discussed things that you (by your own acknowledgment) merely imagine that TZ said. You do not know whether he actually said them. That was and is my issue.

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I have tremendous respect for you. The last thing is like to do is offend you. I like Tom Z very much.

I say this as someone that respects him. I will always be grateful for him taking on Mirai at her lower point and giving her confidence and the technique as well as her 3A that allowed her to reach her dreams. However, but I have noticed things for years. I said before that Ting simply has to get used to the new coaching and new technique. Now, I'm very concerned.

It may be that I'm wrong. That all this was just burn out and she needs time to rest and refocus herself. Maybe that lofty thought I had at the beginning of the season will come true and Ting will once again have a stellar JW. But I can't lie, I think we all know I have a massive soft spot for the athletes, especially for the younger ones. There's very little they can do to make me dislike them. I defend them all to the end, and it breaks my heart when they have set backs like this. After all, they are the ones putting their bodies on the line everyday. They've spent so much money and sacrifices their childhood just for a few years to try and achieve their dreams. So, it's probably the mama bear in me saying all this.

But coaches are different. I actually respect them all, as they've made what only a tiny amount of people are capable of, making competitive athletes.

After any failure of any athlete, we're all prone to blaming the coach. Sometimes it's valid and sometimes not. I think a lot of coaches have been unfairly dragged through the mud and blamed for all a skater's problem. Does that mean we shouldn't at least look more closely? At the same time, can't we all agree that it's not a good idea to tell all skaters to dump their coaches and pray that Brian Orser will take pity on them and take them on.

And word vomit tends to ensure when I think too much. I'm probably the only person that is against skaters leaving a coach when a competition goes sour. I don't want Ting to leave Tom Z. I just worry that his enthusiasm and pride in his skaters blinds him at time.

There is no doubt that he loves them all like his own children. He's their biggest cheerleader. He feels even more nervous than they do before they take the ice. When Mirai fell apart after nationals, he was right there defending her to the media that her meltdown wasn't as bad as it has been in the past (very true!) He's an eternal optimist. It's that supportive behavior makes me like and trust him.

But I want him to succeed. I think Yelim's consistency and Young's resurgence shows that he's great coach. But could he be better?

So in the end of this ridiculously long post, I'd like to appologize for offending you. I'm not trying to slander Tom Z with my speculation. The truth is, I think with a few tweaks he could be one of the greatest coaches we've ever seen.

I guess he's not the only optimist.

eaglehelang said:

I thought that crown has gone to Alysa Liu cos she won US nationals. They are just waiting for her to be age eligible for seniors.

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There seem to be multiple crowns. One for Alysa and one for Ting and there will be more ...

Bradie will be at home soon, and will absolutely need to work on getting those jumps around.

Mariah just needs to work on 3-3s and her confidence.

But I don’t believe that the US ladies will get 3 spots. None are consistent enough to go up against the rest of the top field.

natsulian said:

Ting talked about being tentative as to whether or not to move up to Seniors next season. I’m going to remain silently hopeful about her Junior Worlds placement considering Tom’s history of not molding great talents into great results. The closest Ting got to two clean programs was at Tallin where she had one fall per program. Hopefully Ting puts out two programs she’s proud of come Worlds. I know we say it’ll come with experience, but inconsistency has been plaguing Ting since her first year as a Junior and I think all this experience is very helpful and will hopefully work in her favor.

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Why she's tentative on moving to seniors? She is guaranteed a GP since her SB is well inside top 24. Its just a wasted opportunity if she stayed in junior. She might do GP+JW if didnt selected to WC and i'll be fine about that. If she's thinking about dominating junior that 3A from russia will be on senior she need to put 2 clean program, if she still dud on one of her programs she wont go anywhere.

This might be an indication that she lacks confidence. Moving to senior and competing at bigger events are exactly what she needs.

skatenewbie said:

Why she's tentative on moving to seniors? She is guaranteed a GP since her SB is well inside top 24. Its just a wasted opportunity if she stayed in junior. She might do GP+JW if didnt selected to WC and i'll be fine about that. If she's thinking about dominating junior that 3A from russia will be on senior she need to put 2 clean program, if she still dud on one of her programs she wont go anywhere.

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ice coverage said:

Ting is 16 years old, and she just completed her third pressure-cooker event in three weeks. (Including her first senior nationals and her first senior ISU championship.)

To me, the question is: What is wrong with people who cannot understand the possibility of both physical and mental exhaustion at this point?

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I'm exhausted from traveling back and forth to and from Detroit, being at the arena 12 hours a day, then watching all of 4cc's live I can't imagine what it must be like for the athletes.

moonvine said:

I can't imagine what it must be like for the athletes.

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16 years old. Dashing back and forth like a whirling dervish? Piece of cake!

Bluediamonds09 said:

But I don’t believe that the US ladies will get 3 spots. None are consistent enough to go up against the rest of the top field.

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I don't think we'll get three spots either. Doing so required both that Mariah improve over the season (which she has by bringing the 3-3 back) and Bradie stay as good as she was at the beginning of the season (which she hasn't). Obviously anything can happen at Worlds, but Bradie developing a reputation for not rotating jumps is a bad sign.

skatenewbie said:

Why she's tentative on moving to seniors? She is guaranteed a GP since her SB is well inside top 24. Its just a wasted opportunity if she stayed in junior. She might do GP+JW if didnt selected to WC and i'll be fine about that. If she's thinking about dominating junior that 3A from russia will be on senior she need to put 2 clean program, if she still dud on one of her programs she wont go anywhere.

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I agree totally. Staying junior won't help her nerves one way or another and with the lack of depth with the US ladies now is the time to start building towards 2022 so she should move up. The talent is there as we saw at Nationals staying in juniors would just be a waste.

As others have said, getting 3 spots back seems unlikely given the quality of the field: Kihira, Zagitova, Tutktamysheva, Miyahara, Sakamoto, and Samodurova are all likely to place ahead of both US ladies. I don't think it's impossible to get 3 spots back, but it would require pristine performances from both Bradie and Mariah and probably some errors from others.

I think Bradie really needs to take out the 3Z-3Lo combo and do 2 3Z-3T combos instead. The 3Z-3Lo was a noble experiment, and it may be worth trying again next season, but she needs to do combos that are more consistent at Worlds. I'm hoping Mariah can rebound and finally skate two clean programs.

frida80 said:

This is a Tom Z thing, I'm sad to say. I've seen it so many times. Remember in 2017 and 2028 when Max melted down. Remember when Mirai skated the best SP at nationals in 2017 she has skated in years, only to meltdown because Tom wanted her to include her 3A. Then Camden at the JGPF and Nationals.

I think Tom Z tells his skaters to do things before their ready. For example he probably told both Max and Mirai they could win nationals instead of just focusing on placing. ...

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I think there's another side to the coin, though. The reason you enter an athletic contest is to win. You don't want your coach to be telling you, maybe if you work real hard you might get fifth.

Mirai's triple Axel didn't work out in 2017, but maybe by Tom Z pushing it he laid the ground work for 2018 and an Olympic (team) medal. As for Max, he had his disappointments but from beginning to end of his career I always felt like he was in it to win it and at least had a chance.

Ting showed at Nationals in the LP that she's capable of going clean but like other skaters like Gracie once the first mistake happens it usually all downhill from there and she gives up on the performance. She needs to learn to fight and move on from the mistakes if she wants to move up the ladder in US ladies.

Jammers said:

Ting showed at Nationals in the LP that she's capable of going clean but like other skaters like Gracie once the first mistake happens it usually all downhill from there and she gives up on the performance. She needs to learn to fight and move on from the mistakes if she wants to move up the ladder in US ladies.

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I believe 4CC was due to nerves, but mostly to fatigue. Ting went through Nationals, Junior Camp, last minute training, and decided to fly over to California for 4CC. Let’s hope and pray for two clean programs during Worlds along with Hanna.

What's sad is that even if Mariah skates lights out at Worlds, judges may still not score her well GOE and PCS-wise. Because she does not have reputation or consistency, her PCS never rose and judges may have reservations suddenly rewarding her. That does not bode well for trying to get 3 spots unfortunately. She will have to be absolutely pristine and stunning to win those points from judges AND hope others above her falter.

I thought there was one Grand Prix where Mariah got all 8s in her pcs. Then they dipped again after that competition. I agree though it's a long shot for three slots earned from Worlds but possible. Bradie has potential to be 5-8 and Mariah 7-10. So in best case scenario it happens.

Mariah was scoring higher PCS than Bradie, but it seems the judges just dropped her after she kept having mistakes.

If Bradie can somehow land on the podium (4CC showed that she just needs to fix up her free as her short is scored well), then Mariah only needs to be within top 10 -- very doable. The US really needs Bradie's free program.