2018-19 U.S. Ladies' figure skating

el henry · Sep 4, 2018

I don’t see Champs Camp as “Evaluate the Jumps” Camp; after all, what is a judge going to do, say next time land your 3L? Heck, I can do that, and I’m nowhere near a judge.

From what I understand, programs are evaluated and given yeas, nays, or polish this or that. (See for example Alex Johnson’s latest interview). It is not the full run through let’s see everyone’s jumps and let’s use that to see who can jump that fans seem to want.

I don’t care if the skaters did run-throughs, singles or quads every time at Champs Camp. I care more that they are ready for their first comp.

schizoanalyst · Sep 4, 2018

el henry said:
From what I understand, programs are evaluated and given yeas, nays, or polish this or that. (See for example Alex Johnson’s latest interview). It is not the full run through let’s see everyone’s jumps and let’s use that to see who can jump that fans seem to want.

I'm not really convinced you can evaluate the quality of a program when the jumps are marked. Transitions in and out, musical timing, jump placement are all significant components of a quality program.

Also, I just think it's misguided for US competitors to not put out a full program in a formal setting when given the chance - considering almost none of them are capable of delivering under any significant pressure much.

hippomoomin · Sep 4, 2018

Same here. How can a program be evaluated without jumps? Unless they fill the jumps with something else like in an exhibition.

schizoanalyst said:
I'm not really convinced you can evaluate the quality of a program when the jumps are marked. Transitions in and out, musical timing, jump placement are all significant components of a quality program.

Also, I just think it's misguided for US competitors to not put out a full program in a formal setting when given the chance - considering almost none of them are capable of delivering under any significant pressure much.

el henry · Sep 4, 2018

I have never been to Champs Camp and am relying on interviews about how it is done.

That said, I would presume in many programs that the jumps are “marked”, much like a very early comp (Jason would always use June or July comps to learn his choreo and marked his jumps with doubles. It didn’t mean he couldn’t do triples, it meant he was marking his jumps. And no one but no one, at least until last year :sad21:, was more consistent than Jason).

I don’t need an outside judge’s eagle eye to tell me if I landed my jumps. My coach can do that. The judge can tell me what choreo is more impressive, what transitions look good and don’t look good, the “judgment” calls that an outside perspective can bring.

And if I am not skating well under pressure, I don’t think Champs Camp with an audience of ten will help that either. Early comps, it seems to me, would serve that goal better, as well as perhaps sports psychologists, etc.

Sam-Skwantch · Sep 5, 2018

schizoanalyst said:
I'm not really convinced you can evaluate the quality of a program when the jumps are marked. Transitions in and out, musical timing, jump placement are all significant components of a quality program.

Also, I just think it's misguided for US competitors to not put out a full program in a formal setting when given the chance - considering almost none of them are capable of delivering under any significant pressure much.

Yes to all of this

NanaPat · Sep 5, 2018

el henry said:
I have never been to Champs Camp and am relying on interviews about how it is done.

That said, I would presume in many programs that the jumps are “marked”, much like a very early comp (Jason would always use June or July comps to learn his choreo and marked his jumps with doubles. It didn’t mean he couldn’t do triples, it meant he was marking his jumps. And no one but no one, at least until last year :sad21:, was more consistent than Jason).

I don’t need an outside judge’s eagle eye to tell me if I landed my jumps. My coach can do that. The judge can tell me what choreo is more impressive, what transitions look good and don’t look good, the “judgment” calls that an outside perspective can bring.

And if I am not skating well under pressure, I don’t think Champs Camp with an audience of ten will help that either. Early comps, it seems to me, would serve that goal better, as well as perhaps sports psychologists, etc.

Well, Meagan Duhamel has been to the Canadian high performance camp many times, and has picked up a few Olympic and World medals during her long career. She is one person who mentioned that she was surprised that skaters would leave out their elements at Champ's Camp. She said that she and Eric would maybe leave out one element, and if they did, it would be an element that they are very good at. Her example was spins; she said that everyone knew she and Eric could spin, and there was no particular value in their getting feedback on their spins, so they might leave one out to concentrate on all the other elements. Otherwise, they would do/try everything.

Spirals for Miles · Sep 5, 2018

Since Audrey Shin is not really a contender for the final, any ideas on why she has two spots?

Ice Dance · Sep 5, 2018

Spirals for Miles said:
Since Audrey Shin is not really a contender for the final, any ideas on why she has two spots?

She has the top junior ladies score of the summer. And it's a place holder. If she scores high enough, she'll keep the 2nd spot. If she doesn't, she won't.

el henry · Sep 5, 2018

NanaPat said:
Well, Meagan Duhamel has been to the Canadian high performance camp many times, and has picked up a few Olympic and World medals during her long career. She is one person who mentioned that she was surprised that skaters would leave out their elements at Champ's Camp. She said that she and Eric would maybe leave out one element, and if they did, it would be an element that they are very good at. Her example was spins; she said that everyone knew she and Eric could spin, and there was no particular value in their getting feedback on their spins, so they might leave one out to concentrate on all the other elements. Otherwise, they would do/try everything.

But who are the ones that left out elements? World Champion Kaetlyn Osmond? Patrick Chan? Others?

I love Meghan and her feisty opinions :clap:

But what works best for her and Eric does not mean it works best for other skaters.

I stand by what I said: (and I’m not directing this specifically at you) I think it’s easy for a fan to say “Oh my God, why aren’t those slackers doing *all* their elements! They’re not taking advantage. They’re not doing entire run throughs. Oh dear heavens, that’s why we don’t get medals! Practice, practice, practice, medals, medals, medals”

I refuse to believe it’s that easy :laugh:

MarinHondas · Sep 5, 2018

Ice Dance said:
She has the top junior ladies score of the summer. And it's a place holder. If she scores high enough, she'll keep the 2nd spot. If she doesn't, she won't.

What is the top junior ladies score?

siela · Sep 5, 2018

MarinHondas said:
What is the top junior ladies score?

You can find all top 10 scores here: https://unseenskaters.wordpress.com/top-ten/

ribbit · Sep 5, 2018

schizoanalyst said:
I'm not really convinced you can evaluate the quality of a program when the jumps are marked. Transitions in and out, musical timing, jump placement are all significant components of a quality program.

el henry said:
I have never been to Champs Camp and am relying on interviews about how it is done.

That said, I would presume in many programs that the jumps are “marked”, much like a very early comp (Jason would always use June or July comps to learn his choreo and marked his jumps with doubles. It didn’t mean he couldn’t do triples, it meant he was marking his jumps. And no one but no one, at least until last year :sad21:, was more consistent than Jason).

I've never been to Champs Camp either. I'm assuming that el henry is right that skaters are doing planned doubles rather than triples, and not leaving jumps out in the sense of not doing a jump at all; I agree with schizoanalyst that that would defeat the purpose of the run-through. But if the single most important objective of the run-through is to get the judges' feedback on program quality--including all the aspects schizoanalyst mentions, and which I would agree are essential elements of a good program--then it might make sense to double some jumps to be sure of landing them and so being able to execute all the difficult transitions out, timing and placement of second and third jumps in a combo/sequence, and so on. If you are absolutely certain that you can land your full planned jump content 100% of the time, then by all means go for it. But if there's any doubt at all, especially early in the season, surely it's better to play it safe than to lose the judges' feedback on the transitions you couldn't show because you were getting up from a fall, or the timing of a combo you couldn't do because the landing of your first jump was a bit shaky, or not to be able to time your program and its elements to the music as planned because you're behind from falling or from fighting to save jumps.

Just my $.02.

BeenJammin · Sep 5, 2018

evasorange said:
Everybody seems to be sleeping on Mariah this summer. I've barely heard a word about her even tho she's been active in summer shows and stuff. I'm hoping she can rise to the top of Us Ladies this season, for me she has ten times the charisma and performing abilities of Bradie and she doesn't seem to have quite the ur struggles as Karen. Come through Mariah!!

I could not agree more!

Spirals for Miles · Sep 5, 2018

Ice Dance said:
She has the top junior ladies score of the summer. And it's a place holder. If she scores high enough, she'll keep the 2nd spot. If she doesn't, she won't.

Hmm. but most of the juniors on the JGP competed senior, so I'm not sure it's comparable.

Ice Dance · Sep 5, 2018

Spirals for Miles said:
Hmm. but most of the juniors on the JGP competed senior, so I'm not sure it's comparable.

It doesn't matter. She's one of the top 4 ladies that USFSA has selected. They are likely waiting to really select who, if anyone, gets a second spot until after those four have competed or if one of them does something really spectacular like--say--medal. She's simply penciled in for the second event because 1. someone has to be and 2. she hasn't skated her first event yet so they don't have a reason to take her off the list. It's not a sign that USFSA thinks she is more likely to win a second spot than the other ladies or anything. It's just that she hasn't skated her first event yet.

ice coverage · Sep 5, 2018

ribbit said:
I've never been to Champs Camp either. I'm assuming that el henry is right that skaters are doing planned doubles rather than triples, and not leaving jumps out in the sense of not doing a jump at all; I agree with schizoanalyst that that would defeat the purpose of the run-through. But if the single most important objective of the run-through is to get the judges' feedback on program quality--including all the aspects schizoanalyst mentions, and which I would agree are essential elements of a good program--then it might make sense to double some jumps to be sure of landing them and so being able to execute all the difficult transitions out, timing and placement of second and third jumps in a combo/sequence, and so on. If you are absolutely certain that you can land your full planned jump content 100% of the time, then by all means go for it. But if there's any doubt at all, especially early in the season, surely it's better to play it safe than to lose the judges' feedback on the transitions you couldn't show because you were getting up from a fall, or the timing of a combo you couldn't do because the landing of your first jump was a bit shaky, or not to be able to time your program and its elements to the music as planned because you're behind from falling or from fighting to save jumps.

Just my $.02.

I've never been to Champs Camp either. Appreciate and understand your two cents, ribbit.

To play devil's advocate

:

My two cents are that I think it is very possible that USFS officials are scrutinizing skaters for additional reasons. Possible examples that immediately come to my mind:

Does the skater have the stamina for the full planned jump content? If not, can/should the program be modified in any way to help the skater get through the entire program strongly?

Is the skater able to execute the full planned jump content without sacrificing performance quality? If not, can/should the program be modified to help the skater deliver both the jumps and the performance?

I realize that it is early in the season, but IMO, it would be reasonable for USFS to want to assess where skaters are on the spectrum of readiness.

I don't know how long each evaluation session lasts, but I wonder whether a "best of both worlds" approach is (or could be) taken. Meaning that (non-injured) skaters do complete run-throughs with jumps. And also revisit certain things (transitions, jump combinations, whatever) that either were missed or warrant more attention/discussion.

Bluediamonds09 · Sep 6, 2018

So we still don’t know Gracie’s lp music. Anyone have any guesses? I can’t think of anything she’d be skating to this season.

ribbit · Sep 6, 2018

schizoanalyst said:
I'm not really convinced you can evaluate the quality of a program when the jumps are marked. Transitions in and out, musical timing, jump placement are all significant components of a quality program.

Also, I just think it's misguided for US competitors to not put out a full program in a formal setting when given the chance - considering almost none of them are capable of delivering under any significant pressure much.

el henry said:
I have never been to Champs Camp and am relying on interviews about how it is done.

That said, I would presume in many programs that the jumps are “marked”, much like a very early comp (Jason would always use June or July comps to learn his choreo and marked his jumps with doubles. It didn’t mean he couldn’t do triples, it meant he was marking his jumps. And no one but no one, at least until last year :sad21:, was more consistent than Jason).

I don’t need an outside judge’s eagle eye to tell me if I landed my jumps. My coach can do that. The judge can tell me what choreo is more impressive, what transitions look good and don’t look good, the “judgment” calls that an outside perspective can bring.

And if I am not skating well under pressure, I don’t think Champs Camp with an audience of ten will help that either. Early comps, it seems to me, would serve that goal better, as well as perhaps sports psychologists, etc.

ice coverage said:
I've never been to Champs Camp either. Appreciate and understand your two cents, ribbit.

To play devil's advocate :

My two cents are that I think it is very possible that USFS officials are scrutinizing skaters for additional reasons. Possible examples that immediately come to my mind:

Does the skater have the stamina for the full planned jump content? If not, can/should the program be modified in any way to help the skater get through the entire program strongly?

Is the skater able to execute the full planned jump content without sacrificing performance quality? If not, can/should the program be modified to help the skater deliver both the jumps and the performance?

I realize that it is early in the season, but IMO, it would be reasonable for USFS to want to assess where skaters are on the spectrum of readiness.

I don't know how long each evaluation session lasts, but I wonder whether a "best of both worlds" approach is (or could be) taken. Meaning that (non-injured) skaters do complete run-throughs with jumps. And also revisit certain things (transitions, jump combinations, whatever) that either were missed or warrant more attention/discussion.

I fully agree that both the questions you raise are important points to be addressed. I wonder whether a single run-through early in the season is the best way to assess them, or whether visits by USFS officials or--if enough trust could be created--honest conversations with coaches and skaters about a Plan B or about gradually increasing difficulty over the season might give better information and results. Ideally by August everybody would be prepared to skate their full competitive programs, but I can imagine that all sorts of situations might make that impossible. With several skaters joining Stars on Ice for the first time (I think) in this post-Olympic year, for example, I imagine that a number of Champs Camp attendees have had different off-season and summer training schedules than they're used to, and may still be gaining the comfort with their programs that they would normally expect to have at this point. (I'm really thinking here of the poster who mentioned that it was said that Bradie was doing doubles.)

Another "best of both worlds" scenario, though this might be too time-consuming: wouldn't it be great if the skaters could spend one day doing their programs individually for feedback, marking jumps if necessary to show the choreography to its best advantage, and another day having a simulated competition, doing their full planned content and being marked accordingly?

concorde · Sep 6, 2018

Do we know how programs have historically been performed at Champs Camp? Maybe this is the norm. If not, why the change?

Falls make a program hard to "see" but singles actually throw off the timing of a program. Neither is good for evaluating.

evasorange · Sep 6, 2018

I remember last season it was said that at champs camp they didn’t even request to see Ashely’s la la land and just said yeah that’s fine go back to moulin rouge. Now wouldn't a federation, heading into Olympic season want to at least see some kind of run through of their biggest and most advertised lady’s new program?? Before making a decision to go back to a program that’s been used twice already? That always seemed so strange to me. And it proved to be a bad call in the end. Maybe feedback on new programs isn’t a priority for champs camp

*

2018-19 U.S. Ladies' figure skating

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

schizoanalyst

hippomoomin

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

NanaPat

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion

Ice Dance

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

MarinHondas

siela

ribbit

BeenJammin

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion

Ice Dance

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605

Bluediamonds09

ribbit

concorde

evasorange

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