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Thread: ISU Championship Allotments - Ladies

  1. #646
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    In the old days, spots above two were given to the skater and not the country. But they were still based on the results from Worlds in the previous year. Adding an extra spot for the Grand Prix Final winner, that could not be transferred to another skater from that country, would be a departure in one way (using GPF) but not in another way (extra spot attached to a person).

    Of all the proposals here, that one seems the least break from tradition and most likely to happen. The probability may still be close to zero, however, given the ISUs structure and priorities.

  2. #647
    Observer 4everchan's Avatar
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    as i said.. that's one of the things ISU hasn't tweaked in years. It does the job... they have bigger fish to fry than accommodate a girl who ranks 5- or 6 in her own Nationals, despite her talent and potential....

  3. #648
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    Just as a point of curiosity, I have in the back of my mind the thought that the Japanese Skating Federation has a priority to send any Grand Prix winner that they might have to worlds, even above someone who wins the National Championship. Am i remembering this right, or am I all wet?

  4. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4everchan View Post
    the point some are making remains the same.... if a Russian or Japanese lady wins GPF, then a 4th spot is added and now, there is a strong chance that accessing the top 10 is even more difficult.... let's see... 7 Russians/Japanese, 1 or 2 Americans, 1 or 2 Canadians... there.. top 11... is done.... good bye anybody else trying to make a top ten...
    Still, it's only one extra placement. Your count assumes that Russia or Japan will always win the Grand Prix Final. In fact, Grand Prix Final winners have come from Uzbekistan, Korea, Italy, Germany, China, France and Switzerland. The re is no guarantee about who might snatch that extra plum.

    Anyway, as i say, I am not overly sold on the idea. But it would be a way to give a nod in the direction of rewarding excellence in international competition that would do minimal harm to the current structure.

  5. #650
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Still, it's only one extra placement. Your count assumes that Russia or Japan will always win the Grand Prix Final. In fact, Grand Prix Final winners have come from Uzbekistan, Korea, Italy, Germany, China, France and Switzerland. The re is no guarantee about who might snatch that extra plum.

    Anyway, as i say, I am not overly sold on the idea. But it would be a way to give a nod in the direction of rewarding excellence in international competition that would do minimal harm to the current structure.
    maybe you should read the second paragraph of my post that explains what would happen if someone other than a russian or a japanese would win....

  6. #651
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4everchan View Post
    maybe you should read the second paragraph of my post that explains what would happen if someone other than a russian or a japanese would win....
    Heads would explode?

  7. #652
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Just as a point of curiosity, I have in the back of my mind the thought that the Japanese Skating Federation has a priority to send any Grand Prix winner that they might have to worlds, even above someone who wins the National Championship. Am i remembering this right, or am I all wet?
    The winner of nationals is guaranteed a spot. Overall body of work considerations, particularly GPF winner or medalist could possibly result in sending someone not on the nationals podium over the nationals silver or bronze medalist.

  8. #653
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    On the other hand, I actually wonder if the participation of a skater at worlds somehow actually encourages the development of the skating at the home country.

    For example, when Yuna was skating and getting those spots, were there other Korean ladies? (Yes, there are some good Korean ladies now - they may be inspired by her example, but the spots she earned pretty much made 0 difference for any of them).
    Javi has been European champion for 6 consecutive years. Do we see any other spanish skater developing that look anywhere close to make top 10 at Euros?
    Kostner has been getting lots of spots for italy too - do we see any other top ladies developing there? Nope

    Actually, maybe the current system is good. The Russian and the Japanese ladies need to push the limits just to get that spot for Worlds that is basically granted to many second tier skaters, who only need to push themselves to met the minimum TES criteria. While we don't get to see those ladies sometimes, the restricted number of spots surely creates a lot of pressure on them to improve as athletes and artists.

  9. #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by moriel View Post

    Actually, maybe the current system is good. The Russian and the Japanese ladies need to push the limits just to get that spot for Worlds that is basically granted to many second tier skaters, who only need to push themselves to met the minimum TES criteria. While we don't get to see those ladies sometimes, the restricted number of spots surely creates a lot of pressure on them to improve as athletes and artists.
    I’ve been saying for years that having three spots has brought about a complacency in the US for our ladies and since our top skaters don’t really have to put up much fight to get those spots we have seen skaters who reflect it. We usually had a good idea who was going to get those spots but rarely did they do anything too eaerg shattering with them. It doesn’t mean I don’t have a lot of love for them. Especially Mariah Still...I’ve wanted to drop down to one or two spots for a while and see our girls put up a fight for those spots.

    I’m not even against the current system. I’m just open to discussing some of these options which might create an interesting dynamic to the sport.

  10. #655
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    I think 3 spots max per country is fine. It breeds competition within the country and creates better skaters. The point of World Championships in any sport isn't a competition of the best against the best. If it were, there would be no country cap. And if the ISU did nothing when the US was overproducing women in the 90s and early 2000s, they aren't going to do anything now.

    I do think that the qualification system for 3 spots should change though. Back in the 90s, if you had 3 skaters at Worlds and wanted to keep three spots they all had to add up to 21 or less. The system was the same if there were only 2 skaters (13 or less). I have no interest in watching a 3rd American, 3rd Canadian, or 3rd Russian simply because their top 2 did fine at Worlds the year before while their 3rd imploded. This way you can make sure there is actual depth before awarding a 3rd spot.

    Using this system, 2019 Worlds spots would be as such: 3 spots for JPN; 2 spots for CAN, ITA, RUS, USA, BEL.

    Unpopular I'm sure, but I'd like depth to dictate extra spots.

  11. #656
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    Quote Originally Posted by gravy View Post
    I do think that the qualification system for 3 spots should change though. Back in the 90s, if you had 3 skaters at Worlds and wanted to keep three spots they all had to add up to 21 or less. The system was the same if there were only 2 skaters (13 or less). I have no interest in watching a 3rd American, 3rd Canadian, or 3rd Russian simply because their top 2 did fine at Worlds the year before while their 3rd imploded. This way you can make sure there is actual depth before awarding a 3rd spot..
    I’ve said this a couple times in the past and I totally agree with you. The rest of your post is a pretty fair

    After the Stasya shenanigans...I do think the RuFed deserves two spots Still...I’d be alright with Masha winning GPF and reclaiming that 3rd spot though

  12. #657
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    Quote Originally Posted by gravy View Post
    I think 3 spots max per country is fine. It breeds competition within the country and creates better skaters. The point of World Championships in any sport isn't a competition of the best against the best. If it were, there would be no country cap. And if the ISU did nothing when the US was overproducing women in the 90s and early 2000s, they aren't going to do anything now.

    I do think that the qualification system for 3 spots should change though. Back in the 90s, if you had 3 skaters at Worlds and wanted to keep three spots they all had to add up to 21 or less. The system was the same if there were only 2 skaters (13 or less). I have no interest in watching a 3rd American, 3rd Canadian, or 3rd Russian simply because their top 2 did fine at Worlds the year before while their 3rd imploded. This way you can make sure there is actual depth before awarding a 3rd spot.

    Using this system, 2019 Worlds spots would be as such: 3 spots for JPN; 2 spots for CAN, ITA, RUS, USA, BEL.

    Unpopular I'm sure, but I'd like depth to dictate extra spots.
    i agree with this, it was better when every skater at worlds counted towards spots. I think it's a bit too much of an advantage when only the top two scorers count for countries with 3 spots, versus both skaters for country with two skaters....

  13. #658
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    How many skaters can enter GP from one country (maximum) ?

  14. #659
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanyuyuzuru1207 View Post
    How many skaters can enter GP from one country (maximum) ?
    18, max of three from one country in any event. Realistically though it’s less since many will have two assignments.

  15. #660
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    Quote Originally Posted by gravy View Post
    I think 3 spots max per country is fine. It breeds competition within the country and creates better skaters. The point of World Championships in any sport isn't a competition of the best against the best. If it were, there would be no country cap. And if the ISU did nothing when the US was overproducing women in the 90s and early 2000s, they aren't going to do anything now.

    I do think that the qualification system for 3 spots should change though. Back in the 90s, if you had 3 skaters at Worlds and wanted to keep three spots they all had to add up to 21 or less. The system was the same if there were only 2 skaters (13 or less). I have no interest in watching a 3rd American, 3rd Canadian, or 3rd Russian simply because their top 2 did fine at Worlds the year before while their 3rd imploded. This way you can make sure there is actual depth before awarding a 3rd spot.

    Using this system, 2019 Worlds spots would be as such: 3 spots for JPN; 2 spots for CAN, ITA, RUS, USA, BEL.

    Unpopular I'm sure, but I'd like depth to dictate extra spots.
    One big flaw I see in your logic is that, while you don't want to see the 3rd american/russian/canadian, you seem to be fine with watching the second italian (who is below all 3 of those). The spot criteria should be equally fair to all countries, so if a country with 3 spots may lose a spot over something, it is more than fair that a country with 2 spots will also lose a spot in such situation.


    Also, you give 3 spots to JPN, but how do you know JPN has actually a 3rd good lady to fill that 3rd spot?
    I personally think that Worlds cannot define depth, for 2 reasons:
    - Worlds do not show the depth of field: if a country has a number of spots, we cannot know if there are MORE good skaters in that country to fill the extra spot. Also, the current system does not account for the juniors turning senior.
    - one performance only, so if a skater bombs... Take Alina, for example, she got a OGM this year, but bombed worlds. Should such things result in spot loss?

    Also, according to your logic, some countries shouldnt even get 1 spot to worlds, if they only skater didnt add up to 21


    I would say rather than using previous worlds, current GP could be used to define spots. GP happens before worlds and before everybody's nationals, so it would work. Or even add CS into the mix to cover more skaters and give everybody equal opportunities.

    The good sides:
    - More skaters to display actual depth
    - Depends less on various spot restrictions.
    - Body of work, not a single performance - each skater has 2 chances to medal and contribute to a spot.

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