ISU Championship Allotments - Ladies | Page 33 | Golden Skate

ISU Championship Allotments - Ladies

Joekaz

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
That's a little tricky, though. If you go by "fans' eyes," there were a lot of lower-ranked skaters at the Olympics and Worlds that skated wonderfully. But they didn't score high on the ISU scale of values and so lost out to skaters who maybe had falls or who presented little choreography or coherent program.

It is a sport, so you have to go by the judges' markings following the IJS. But this is different from what the fans see and value.

So if expanding the sport is the main aim then change the IJS to more accurately reflect what fans value.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
So if expanding the sport is the main aim then change the IJS to more accurately reflect what fans value.

I am in sympathy with this idea.

But I still say it's tricky. 2002 Skate America, for instance, came up on another thread. The fans ate up Jenny Kirk and Ann Patrice McDonough with a spoon. They were the toast of the town, even ahead of Michelle Kwan. Why? Because they were pretty teenagers and they presented engaging programs. Meanwhile, Yukari Nakano and Ludmilla Nelidina did triple Axels -- the first in ladies' figure skating in a decade. Meh. The audience didn't even notice.
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
To return for a moment to the suggestion that the winner of the Grand Prix Final ought to get a free pass to Worlds, here is my opinion. The idea that this creates a new category of skater who is not part of his nation's team, that seems to have too many problems to be considered seriously. But I don't see any harm in just giving the lucky country an extra spot, to be filled by the GP Final winner.

So if Nathan Chen wins the Grand Prix Final and USA has three spots anyway, now they have four. If Javier Fernandez wins the GP Final and Spain has one spot, now they have two. If Yuna Kim wins the Grand Prix Final and Korea has one spot, now they have two. If Carolina Kostner wins the GP Final and Italy has one spot, now they have two. If they have two, now they have three. It would not a priori favor the big federations federations any more than the small. It would just reward any national federation that can produce a GP champion (and also reward that individual, who now has the luxury of bombing nationals but still going to Worlds. :laugh:)

I am undecided whether this elevates or diminishes the prestige of the Grand Prix. The GP title ought to be something of significance in its own right, and not seen just as a stepping stone to Worlds. So all in all I am only lukewarm about the proposal to give the GP champion a free pass to Worlds. But I don't see anything outrageously wrong with the notion.

the point some are making remains the same.... if a Russian or Japanese lady wins GPF, then a 4th spot is added and now, there is a strong chance that accessing the top 10 is even more difficult.... let's see... 7 Russians/Japanese, 1 or 2 Americans, 1 or 2 Canadians... there.. top 11... is done.... good bye anybody else trying to make a top ten... and lucky you, there is one spot left for #12 so if you had two spots, you may retain them now....

So in the end, nations coming inwith 1 spot only, and we can assume that it's developing or smaller nations, or in the case of Canada, years of Jennfier Robinson (sorry mrrice) :) , will have a very hard time, almost an impossible time to earn a second spot...

On top of that, if let's say a Canadian lady won GPF, and had 2 or 3 spots already.... adding one spot may have been nice for a girl who otherwise would have stayed at home.... she may end up in the lower tiers or not even making the LP.... and then you would have people like in this thread, complaining about the why 4 Canadians when you have 12 better Russians/Japanese staying at home..

So, I don't think this idea would please anyone from any side of the debate
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
So if expanding the sport is the main aim then change the IJS to more accurately reflect what fans value.

the real issue, IMHO, is that the ISU had to act way too fast creating the IJS ... the SLC scandal made things impossible to keep the ordinal system... however, the system created became hard to understand for casual fans, even more so than the former one.

Now, the issue is that the constant tweaking of the system makes even the most hardcore fans confused...

I believe there could be a different system put in place but in the end, new system or not, the ISU hasn't touched one thing in MANY years and it's the spots for Worlds and that is simply because it's the best compromise to showcase countries with more than 1 great skater without condemning smaller countries.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
the point some are making remains the same.... if a Russian or Japanese lady wins GPF, then a 4th spot is added and now, there is a strong chance that accessing the top 10 is even more difficult.... let's see... 7 Russians/Japanese, 1 or 2 Americans, 1 or 2 Canadians... there.. top 11... is done.... good bye anybody else trying to make a top ten... and lucky you, there is one spot left for #12 so if you had two spots, you may retain them now....

But if it better reflects their actual standing in the world is it really unfair in the end? Honest question there. The rules can be shifted to accomadate the changes and to maintain the same trend in spots awarded and could even be expanded. Is it really unfair to expect skaters who compete and nations that develop them to be motivated to improve and keep
up with a rising standard? A skater like Yuna or even Kaetlyn, who is bringing home spots, is all it takes. Now why not expect those who fill those spots to exemplify similar standards as those who earned them.

I’m more like Mathman...not 100% on board with either side of the debate and certainly take the points you make. I am not aiming to flood the competition with one nation...don’t even care about that stuff...but having a spot for skaters who are putting in the effort and achieving top level performances doesn’t seem to be an unreasonable idea. I like Mathman’s idea though..A skater like Kaetlyn could be extra motivated to win GPF and prevent one of those bonus Russian or Japanese skaters from ruining the world for all. If not well...it’s not really the end of the world :) It does sort of favor big feds andvlikely would most seasons but there is no reason it couldn’t act as a catalyst for a federation to invest in a rising star like Javi or Denis and create opportunity for growth at home and influence in the ISU. There are a lot of dimensions to explore and that is why I like discussions like this.

I’d be curious if anyone actually believes anything like this would ever be addressed by the ISU. I certainly view this as a hypothetical discussion with almost no chance of actually going any further than this forum. Is this being discussed elsewhere?
 

NanaPat

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Country
Canada
In the old days, spots above two were given to the skater and not the country. But they were still based on the results from Worlds in the previous year. Adding an extra spot for the Grand Prix Final winner, that could not be transferred to another skater from that country, would be a departure in one way (using GPF) but not in another way (extra spot attached to a person).

Of all the proposals here, that one seems the least break from tradition and most likely to happen. The probability may still be close to zero, however, given the ISUs structure and priorities.
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
as i said.. that's one of the things ISU hasn't tweaked in years. It does the job... they have bigger fish to fry than accommodate a girl who ranks 5- or 6 in her own Nationals, despite her talent and potential....
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Just as a point of curiosity, I have in the back of my mind the thought that the Japanese Skating Federation has a priority to send any Grand Prix winner that they might have to worlds, even above someone who wins the National Championship. Am i remembering this right, or am I all wet?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
the point some are making remains the same.... if a Russian or Japanese lady wins GPF, then a 4th spot is added and now, there is a strong chance that accessing the top 10 is even more difficult.... let's see... 7 Russians/Japanese, 1 or 2 Americans, 1 or 2 Canadians... there.. top 11... is done.... good bye anybody else trying to make a top ten...

Still, it's only one extra placement. Your count assumes that Russia or Japan will always win the Grand Prix Final. In fact, Grand Prix Final winners have come from Uzbekistan, Korea, Italy, Germany, China, France and Switzerland. The re is no guarantee about who might snatch that extra plum.

Anyway, as i say, I am not overly sold on the idea. But it would be a way to give a nod in the direction of rewarding excellence in international competition that would do minimal harm to the current structure.
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
Still, it's only one extra placement. Your count assumes that Russia or Japan will always win the Grand Prix Final. In fact, Grand Prix Final winners have come from Uzbekistan, Korea, Italy, Germany, China, France and Switzerland. The re is no guarantee about who might snatch that extra plum.

Anyway, as i say, I am not overly sold on the idea. But it would be a way to give a nod in the direction of rewarding excellence in international competition that would do minimal harm to the current structure.

maybe you should read the second paragraph of my post that explains what would happen if someone other than a russian or a japanese would win....
 

merleice

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Just as a point of curiosity, I have in the back of my mind the thought that the Japanese Skating Federation has a priority to send any Grand Prix winner that they might have to worlds, even above someone who wins the National Championship. Am i remembering this right, or am I all wet?

The winner of nationals is guaranteed a spot. Overall body of work considerations, particularly GPF winner or medalist could possibly result in sending someone not on the nationals podium over the nationals silver or bronze medalist.
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
On the other hand, I actually wonder if the participation of a skater at worlds somehow actually encourages the development of the skating at the home country.

For example, when Yuna was skating and getting those spots, were there other Korean ladies? (Yes, there are some good Korean ladies now - they may be inspired by her example, but the spots she earned pretty much made 0 difference for any of them).
Javi has been European champion for 6 consecutive years. Do we see any other spanish skater developing that look anywhere close to make top 10 at Euros?
Kostner has been getting lots of spots for italy too - do we see any other top ladies developing there? Nope

Actually, maybe the current system is good. The Russian and the Japanese ladies need to push the limits just to get that spot for Worlds that is basically granted to many second tier skaters, who only need to push themselves to met the minimum TES criteria. While we don't get to see those ladies sometimes, the restricted number of spots surely creates a lot of pressure on them to improve as athletes and artists.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
Actually, maybe the current system is good. The Russian and the Japanese ladies need to push the limits just to get that spot for Worlds that is basically granted to many second tier skaters, who only need to push themselves to met the minimum TES criteria. While we don't get to see those ladies sometimes, the restricted number of spots surely creates a lot of pressure on them to improve as athletes and artists.

I’ve been saying for years that having three spots has brought about a complacency in the US for our ladies and since our top skaters don’t really have to put up much fight to get those spots we have seen skaters who reflect it. We usually had a good idea who was going to get those spots but rarely did they do anything too eaerg shattering with them. It doesn’t mean I don’t have a lot of love for them. Especially Mariah ;) Still...I’ve wanted to drop down to one or two spots for a while and see our girls put up a fight for those spots.

I’m not even against the current system. I’m just open to discussing some of these options which might create an interesting dynamic to the sport.
 

gravy

¿No ven quién soy yo?
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
I think 3 spots max per country is fine. It breeds competition within the country and creates better skaters. The point of World Championships in any sport isn't a competition of the best against the best. If it were, there would be no country cap. And if the ISU did nothing when the US was overproducing women in the 90s and early 2000s, they aren't going to do anything now.

I do think that the qualification system for 3 spots should change though. Back in the 90s, if you had 3 skaters at Worlds and wanted to keep three spots they all had to add up to 21 or less. The system was the same if there were only 2 skaters (13 or less). I have no interest in watching a 3rd American, 3rd Canadian, or 3rd Russian simply because their top 2 did fine at Worlds the year before while their 3rd imploded. This way you can make sure there is actual depth before awarding a 3rd spot.

Using this system, 2019 Worlds spots would be as such: 3 spots for JPN; 2 spots for CAN, ITA, RUS, USA, BEL.

Unpopular I'm sure, but I'd like depth to dictate extra spots.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
I do think that the qualification system for 3 spots should change though. Back in the 90s, if you had 3 skaters at Worlds and wanted to keep three spots they all had to add up to 21 or less. The system was the same if there were only 2 skaters (13 or less). I have no interest in watching a 3rd American, 3rd Canadian, or 3rd Russian simply because their top 2 did fine at Worlds the year before while their 3rd imploded. This way you can make sure there is actual depth before awarding a 3rd spot..

I’ve said this a couple times in the past and I totally agree with you. The rest of your post is a pretty fair :yes:

After the Stasya shenanigans...I do think the RuFed deserves two spots :drama: Still...I’d be alright with Masha winning GPF and reclaiming that 3rd spot though :laugh:
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
I think 3 spots max per country is fine. It breeds competition within the country and creates better skaters. The point of World Championships in any sport isn't a competition of the best against the best. If it were, there would be no country cap. And if the ISU did nothing when the US was overproducing women in the 90s and early 2000s, they aren't going to do anything now.

I do think that the qualification system for 3 spots should change though. Back in the 90s, if you had 3 skaters at Worlds and wanted to keep three spots they all had to add up to 21 or less. The system was the same if there were only 2 skaters (13 or less). I have no interest in watching a 3rd American, 3rd Canadian, or 3rd Russian simply because their top 2 did fine at Worlds the year before while their 3rd imploded. This way you can make sure there is actual depth before awarding a 3rd spot.

Using this system, 2019 Worlds spots would be as such: 3 spots for JPN; 2 spots for CAN, ITA, RUS, USA, BEL.

Unpopular I'm sure, but I'd like depth to dictate extra spots.

i agree with this, it was better when every skater at worlds counted towards spots. I think it's a bit too much of an advantage when only the top two scorers count for countries with 3 spots, versus both skaters for country with two skaters....
 

moriel

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
I think 3 spots max per country is fine. It breeds competition within the country and creates better skaters. The point of World Championships in any sport isn't a competition of the best against the best. If it were, there would be no country cap. And if the ISU did nothing when the US was overproducing women in the 90s and early 2000s, they aren't going to do anything now.

I do think that the qualification system for 3 spots should change though. Back in the 90s, if you had 3 skaters at Worlds and wanted to keep three spots they all had to add up to 21 or less. The system was the same if there were only 2 skaters (13 or less). I have no interest in watching a 3rd American, 3rd Canadian, or 3rd Russian simply because their top 2 did fine at Worlds the year before while their 3rd imploded. This way you can make sure there is actual depth before awarding a 3rd spot.

Using this system, 2019 Worlds spots would be as such: 3 spots for JPN; 2 spots for CAN, ITA, RUS, USA, BEL.

Unpopular I'm sure, but I'd like depth to dictate extra spots.

One big flaw I see in your logic is that, while you don't want to see the 3rd american/russian/canadian, you seem to be fine with watching the second italian (who is below all 3 of those). The spot criteria should be equally fair to all countries, so if a country with 3 spots may lose a spot over something, it is more than fair that a country with 2 spots will also lose a spot in such situation.


Also, you give 3 spots to JPN, but how do you know JPN has actually a 3rd good lady to fill that 3rd spot?
I personally think that Worlds cannot define depth, for 2 reasons:
- Worlds do not show the depth of field: if a country has a number of spots, we cannot know if there are MORE good skaters in that country to fill the extra spot. Also, the current system does not account for the juniors turning senior.
- one performance only, so if a skater bombs... Take Alina, for example, she got a OGM this year, but bombed worlds. Should such things result in spot loss?

Also, according to your logic, some countries shouldnt even get 1 spot to worlds, if they only skater didnt add up to 21


I would say rather than using previous worlds, current GP could be used to define spots. GP happens before worlds and before everybody's nationals, so it would work. Or even add CS into the mix to cover more skaters and give everybody equal opportunities.

The good sides:
- More skaters to display actual depth
- Depends less on various spot restrictions.
- Body of work, not a single performance - each skater has 2 chances to medal and contribute to a spot.
 
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