Yuna Kim's double-double-double

NadezhdaNadya said:

Once again, my thread is not about the 2A. In fact, she had three (!!!) 2A in her Olympics 2010 FS program. She repeated that jump three times.
My thread is about the reasons why she did not have triple-double-double like many other ladies. Carolina did 3S-2T-2T in Olympics 2014. Yuna did again 2A-2T-2Lo.
Yuna is my favourite skater. High expectations.

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Thank you for clarifying. Yes she did 3x 2A in her 2010 Olympic FS. And there are skaters like Carolina and Kaetlyn who do not repeat the 2A at all. Yuna could have done 3Lo, 3F, or 3S here instead. But I think what it boils down to is consistency with certain jumps like PPs have said. Skaters sometimes do not go for the highest attainable TES because they don't need to. She already had 2x 3+3 (counting 2A+3T) and that was rare for that time. At some point there is a line even for the greatest champions. Many find it better to have a layout you know you can do clean every time and maximize PCS.

Indeed after watching Wakaba at Worlds I have asked myself why don't more skaters repeat 3L+3T instead of 2A+3T like we so often see. They are capable so why not repeat and maximize points. But I think the answer is the same.

*~RussianBleux~* said:

Thank you for clarifying. Yes she did 3x 2A in her 2010 Olympic FS. And there are skaters like Carolina and Kaetlyn who do not repeat the 2A at all. Yuna could have done 3Lo, 3F, or 3S here instead. But I think what it boils down to is consistency with certain jumps like PPs have said. Skaters sometimes do not go for the highest attainable TES because they don't need to. She already had 2x 3+3 (counting 2A+3T) and that was rare for that time. At some point there is a line even for the greatest champions. Many find it better to have a layout you know you can do clean every time and maximize PCS.

Indeed after watching Wakaba at Worlds I have asked myself why don't more skaters repeat 3L+3T instead of 2A+3T like we so often see. They are capable so why not repeat and maximize points. But I think the answer is the same.

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Thank you for the answer.
Just one thing - she could not do 3Lo. Yuna did not do 3Lo. Out of 6 possible triples, Yuna could do only 4 - 3T, 3S, TF and 3Lz.

NadezhdaNadya said:

Thank you for the answer.
Just one thing - she could not do 3Lo. Yuna did not do 3Lo. Out of 6 possible triples, Yuna could do only 4 - 3T, 3S, TF and 3Lz.

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Another issue is that, often, 3 jump combos have low overall quality due to the lack of speed out of the final jump. Doing an easier first jump (2A) could improve the overall quality if flow out of the jumps is maintained. Better quality = higher GOE.

(Deleted previous post because of errors)

I've think that this was the best layout for her (or at least BoP has said that she should have done a planned 2Lz, but wouldn't this make sense with the SoV for GOE?):

3Lz-3T
3F
2A-3T +1.9 from 3S-2T
3S
2Lz-2T-2Lo -1.2 from 2A-2T-2Lo
3Lz
2A

Net gain: 0.7

Really, the answers here are usually "consistency" and "BV". Yuna didn't have 3Lo because of consistency, but she had to make up a good BV somehow.

To just be frank, it was fine that Yuna didn't have a 3Lo in her Les Miserables. The elements she did all mostly made sense with the music, especially the placement of the 2A-2T-2Lo, 3Lz, 3F and 2A. I'd rather watch something like that, as timing your jumps to the music and executing it perfectly is hard.

NadezhdaNadya said:

Thank you for the answer.
Just one thing - she could not do 3Lo. Yuna did not do 3Lo. Out of 6 possible triples, Yuna could do only 4 - 3T, 3S, TF and 3Lz.

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Ahh yes that's right. I had forgotten because I was speaking more generally. Yes, Yuna could have done 3F or 3S here but would not have done 3Lo.

These protocols are such a blast from the past and a reminder of Yuna's awesomeness. Most were doing 2A+3T or 3T+3T and then 3S+2A+SEQ, if that. But Yuna was doing 2times +3T. Then there was Mao Asada who did the 3A, another rarity at that time. That was such an incredible rivalry. I miss them both.

Also a reminder of how far we have come in such a short amount of time. I think repeating a 3+3 instead of 2A+3T and also quads will be next for the ladies.

To directly answer the OPs question, it was because of rule changes and maximum points for her layout. Yuna previously did the 3Lz+2T+2Lo, 3F+3T, and 2A+3T, with two double more solo axels.

The rules changed to allow only two 2As so she dropped the 2A+3T. She starting getting (silly IMO) edge calls on her flip so she changed to 3Lz+3T.

Now, unlike some other answers imply, she was probably better off switching to the 2A+2T+2Lo than the 3Lz+2T+2Lo because she would earn higher GOEs over the whole program and it’s lower-risk combination. Not to pick on Spirals for Miles because I see the following idea frequently from many posters in regards to combinations, but it drives me insane because it’s not really accurate, from a points perspective.

Spirals for Miles said:

What the OP meant, I think, is why not do 3F-2T-2Lo or 3S-2T-2Lo, because having a triple means higher GOE factoring. And I really don't know. Easiest for her, probably.

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In terms of max GOE, if Yuna did:
2A + 2T + 2Lo (max +1.50)
3Lz (max +2.10)

It’s the same as if she did:
3Lz + 2T + 2Lo (+2.10)
2A (+1.50)

The difference is that Yuna (and most everyone else) got lower GOEs on her X+2+2 combination than she did her 3+3 and solo triples, and you want to get the highest GOE on the highest-factored jumps.

Say she did 3Lz+2T+2Lo (+2; +1.40 points) and 2A (+3; +1.50 points) she would earn 2.90 points. But if she did 3Lz (+3; +2.10) and 2A+2T+2Lo (+2; +1.00) points she would earn 3.10 points. It’s not a huge difference, sure, but competitions have been decided by less. And this assumed she’d get the same GOE on the 3-jump combo either way. But since the 2A combination is easier to do than the 3Lz combination, she (or most skaters with a good 2A) might actually be able to squeeze a few tenths higher in +GOE by landing it better. And since the 2A version is easier, it’s lower risk, and if it nets more points anyhow, it’d be silly not to do it.

Additionally, I think maybe it’s just a general impression thing. Without the 2A+2T+2Lo, Yuna and many other skaters would just be doing solo 2A, solo 2A, which is a little bit underwhelming.

Edit: the only time GOE arguments really apply in regards to higher factoring is doing two 2A+3Ts instead of two 3+3s so that you can get max +2.10 GOE on every single jumping pass. But even this is probably not worth it if you can do something Alina’s layout (+3Lo combination and repeating both Lutz and Flip, instead of repeating +3T) or maybe not even for someone like Medvedeva with a weak axel who may not get great GOE on the 2A+3T vs her 3+3S. (Medvedeva would probably be better off just not doing the 2A+2T+2T and trying a different 3-jump combination.)

cohen-esque said:

ENTIRE POST

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This is a great breakdown of it. The bottom line is, as I've mentioned, they probably looked for a layout that could maximize her GOEs rather than having the highest BV. Aside from her 3F (which IIRC she was given an incorrect call in '13 Worlds during her SP), her 3S is good but not great. Her 2A-2T-2L was still the best option not only to gain the maximum GOE but also to keep her program balance. In this regard, to quote chopinskate:

The elements she did all mostly made sense with the music, especially the placement of the 2A-2T-2Lo, 3Lz, 3F and 2A. I'd rather watch something like that, as timing your jumps to the music and executing it perfectly is hard.

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I'm curious about this combo though:

2Lz-2T-2Lo

This is the first time I heard someone suggest this combo for Yuna (I don't follow fs discussions here until recently). It sounds interesting but IDK, wouldn't it looked like an "amateurish" combo for someone who has a 3Lz in her repertoire? OTOH, I can totally see this working in her Adios Nonino particularly for the last leg of her program. I am just curious how this will work out in terms of choreography /presentation (in general of course, since Yuna already retired ). Does any skater have this combo?

cohen-esque said:

To directly answer the OPs question, it was because of rule changes and maximum points for her layout. Yuna previously did the 3Lz+2T+2Lo, 3F+3T, and 2A+3T, with two double more solo axels.

The rules changed to allow only two 2As so she dropped the 2A+3T. She starting getting (silly IMO) edge calls on her flip so she changed to 3Lz+3T.

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She was doing the lutz combo well before the change limiting 2A's. I think she upgraded the combo merely to add difficulty to the program, probably hoping to earn higher PCS since there's no way for the judges to compensate the added difficulty in TES.

Izabela said:

I'm curious about this combo though:

2Lz-2T-2Lo

This is the first time I heard someone suggest this combo for Yuna (I don't follow fs discussions until recently). It sounds interesting but IDK, wouldn't it looked like an "amateurish" combo for someone who has a 3Lz in her repertoire? OTOH, I can totally see this working in her Adios Nonino particularly for the last leg of her program. I am just curious how this will work out in terms of choreography /presentation. Does any skater have this combo?

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I think that a skater wouldn’t do it for exactly that reason: it seems amateurish. I also think the judges would be less prone to give it high GOEs, and those GOES will be very low for all double anyway. From a base value perspective, however, it would make sense. In fact there are several skaters would could probably include a third 3+3 or a +1Lo combination and then do a solo double for extra points.

Yuna post-Vancouver included:
3Lz+3T
3F
3S
3Lz
2A+2T+2Lo
3S+2T
2A
For BV: 40.80 (at the time)

Instead, she could have done:
3Lz + 3T
3F
3S
3Lz
2A + 3T
2Lz + 2T + 2Lo
2A
For BV: 41.5

The GOE factoring for a 2Lz is 0.30, vs 0.50 points for a 2A, so it’s a net gain if the judges give GOE reasonably. But even “deliberate-ish” pops, where the skater does a huge and gorgeous double jump that had been previously planned as a triple, rarely get more than +1s.

But she could’ve done a 2Lz+3T and 2A+2T+2Lo, which would have been neat. I’ve always liked the 2F+3T and 2Lz+3T combinations from 80s skaters like Katarina Witt, and they’re harder than most of the 3+2 combinations we see these days instead. Personally, I would love to see a skater do something like this. It would be worth more than Higuchi or Miyahara’s layouts, repeating the 3Lz and 3T:
3S+3Lo
2A
2Lz+3T+2Lo (or 2F+3T+2Lo, but the points don’t justify it vs a 3T+2Lo+2Lo)
———
3Lz+3T
3F
3Lz
2A
BV: 48.39 (vs. 47.81 for Wakaba Higuchi’s jump layout at worlds.)

drivingmissdaisy said:

She was doing the lutz combo well before the change limiting 2A's. I think she upgraded the combo merely to add difficulty to the program, probably hoping to earn higher PCS since there's no way for the judges to compensate the added difficulty in TES.

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My comment was in regards to her different layout in general for the second half of her career. For the 2A limitation I was talking about why she dropped the 2A+3T; doing it left her with an empty jump spot to fill that used to be taken up by the third solo 2A.

I think the 3Lz+3T was specifically because she didn’t want to lose GOE for an edge call on the 3F+3T. I think on the solo flip she only ever got an edge call at the 2013 Worlds. But when she was doing it in combination she got quite a few. I agree that the axel limitation was probably irrelevant to the decision.

Now for the 3-jump, she was actually doing the 3Lz+2T+2Lo when the GOE for the 3Lz and 2A was the same. And yes, that was well before the 2A limit was imposed. She changed to 2A+2T+2Lo the 2009-2010 Olympic season. And if you compare her scores in the 2008-2009 season with her 2009-2010 season, she earned generally higher GOE on the 2A+2T+2Lo than she had been getting with the 3Lz+2T+2Lo.

She actually flubbed the 3Lz quite a lot during her early career, more than her Axel or flip, so the 3Lz+3T was a risk for her. The 2A+2T+2Lo was a safer change by comparison. Especially with the GOE scaling changes after Vancouver, there was good reason for her to keep it.

The current Oly silver medalist does a 2-2-2 (2a-2t-2t, even easier than Yuna’s) so I don’t see what’s so funny. Anyways double axel isn’t REALLY a double.

cohen-esque said:

Instead, she could have done:
3Lz + 3T
3F
3S
3Lz
2A + 3T
2Lz + 2T + 2Lo
2A
For BV: 41.5

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For Yuna specifically, I don't think this would work well for her Les Miserables. In particular, I don't know where she could put in a 2A-3T and 2Lz-2T-2L in a choreography tightly designed as her Les Mis. Ditto with Adios Nonino. However, I could say that from the moment she does the spiral to her ChSq up to her 2A, I would actually prefer if she did a 2A-3T there to accompany the Adios' crescendo (mostly for aesthetic reason). She could do this for her Homage to Korea IF she took out her spirals (although say what you want about Yuna's spirals but their placement in HtK is an excellent way of highlighting the music) But we all know how Yuna was in 2011 so we wouldn't want to go there...

3S+3Lo
2A
2Lz+3T+2Lo (or 2F+3T+2Lo, but the points don’t justify it vs a 3T+2Lo+2Lo)
———
3Lz+3T
3F
3Lz
2A
BV: 48.39 (vs. 47.81 for Wakaba Higuchi’s jump layout at worlds.)

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I like this one better. Really, any combination of 2-3 combos or even a 3-4 combo (for men) is something skaters should experiment on.

drivingmissdaisy said:

She's evil.

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She did troll the system hard with her 2A-3T when she couldn't do the 3Lo.

NadezhdaNadya said:

I find it amusing that Yuna Kim used to double-double-double. To be exact, she used to do 2A-2T-2Lo. Did she have some kind of problem and that is why she did not do triple-double-double?
I know she could not do anymore 3Lo and, of course, as most ladies' skaters, she could not land a 3A. But I do not understand this 2A-2T-2Lo.

Does someone has any possible explanation about it?

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She tried 3lz2t2l for the 2008-09 season and possibly 07-08, but was inconsistent on the lutz at the time, so I think she wanted to maximize combo pts and do it on the double axel with the lutz toe and axel toe to get 3 combos in

AshWagsFan said:

She tried 3lz2t2l for the 2008-09 season and possibly 07-08, but was inconsistent on the lutz at the time, so I think she wanted to maximize combo pts and do it on the double axel with the lutz toe and axel toe to get 3 combos in

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She had it during 07-08 season. Specifically, her layout then was:

3F+3T
3Loop
3Lz+2T+2L
2A+3T
3Lz
3S
2A

Looking back, this could have been her most technically demanding layout.

I think Yuna also did either an Ina Bauer or spread eagle into her 2A-2-2 combos, which was really pretty and really took it up a notch.

Usually skaters who do 2A-3T combo do also a 3-2-2 combo. As Zagitova ,Osmond, Miyahara, Mihara, Tenell, etc. 2A-3T + 2-2-2 seems unusual. It seems like skaters want more higher BV than higher GOEs possibility. Skaters who do 2-2-2 are the ones who have two 3-3s (As Medvedeva and Higuchi). Even Mao only did a 2-2-2 (2A-2lo-2lo) when she had two 3-3s. Usually her three jumps combos were 3F-2lo-2lo and 3lo-2lo-2lo, with 3F-3lo and 2A-3T as her other combos or 3A-2T and 3F-2lo in 2008-2009, 2009-2010 seasons.

Yuna could have done a 4Lz+4T and still have gotten the silver. Sochi is a memory most don't want to think about. That was not a competition but a skating show showcasing national pride of Russia. The only good thing that came out of the competition was Yulia's performances. Sucks that Yuna's last performances were done at a scam event.

NadezhdaNadya said:

I find it amusing that Yuna Kim used to double-double-double. To be exact, she used to do 2A-2T-2Lo. Did she have some kind of problem and that is why she did not do triple-double-double?
I know she could not do anymore 3Lo and, of course, as most ladies' skaters, she could not land a 3A. But I do not understand this 2A-2T-2Lo.

Does someone has any possible explanation about it?

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Because she's smart.
Kim was a great skater and a very smart one.
It's easier to get higher GOE on an easier element, and the base value of a 2A and a 3S-2T-2Lo is the same as 2A-2T-2Lo and a 3S.

yume said:

Usually skaters who do 2A-3T combo do also a 3-2-2 combo. As Zagitova ,Osmond, Miyahara, Mihara, Tenell, etc. 2A-3T + 2-2-2 seems unusual. It seems like skaters want more higher BV than higher GOEs possibility. Skaters who do 2-2-2 are the ones who have two 3-3s (As Medvedeva and Higuchi). Even Mao only did a 2-2-2 (2A-2lo-2lo) when she had two 3-3s. Usually her three jumps combos were 3F-2lo-2lo and 3lo-2lo-2lo, with 3F-3lo and 2A-3T as her other combos or 3A-2T and 3F-2lo in 2008-2009, 2009-2010 seasons.

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Yes, I think the same. It is unusual to have 2A-3T + 2-2-2.
And this way, she missed the chance to have another triple - 7th triple in her FS.