Can anyone beat a clean Zagitova? | Page 13 | Golden Skate

Can anyone beat a clean Zagitova?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Scott512

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Yeah, if she goes back to winning again. But here will be many Russian girls who will be better than her by then. There already are. Even Liza when she got her 3A back earlier this season it was already too late she was overtaken by many. Not a good situation to develop skaters, but it is what it is. Some of them so try to switch countries, but I imagine that is difficult.

I don't think anyone is leaving Russia for another country as far as the Russian ladies and girls go even though the competition is incredible.
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
I don't see how anyone is belittling anyones achievements, though. I'm not saying Kaetlyn didn't deserve world champion, nor is she a worse skater than Alina and Zhenya. I don't think you can compare competing against Larkyn/Alaine for a spot to competing with Radionova/Sotskova/Tsurskaya and soon Kostornaia/Trusova. I'm talking about the gap. I don't see how you can possibly disagree with the fact that Kaetlyn getting on world's team. I don't see how you can't see that Larkyn is MUCH less competition than Russian 4/5/6, even though the numbers are obvious.
Canada's #4 this year at Nationals scored 172 and dust at 4CC.
Russia's #4 this year at Nationals scored 153 and dust at Worlds.

The numbers may seem obvious to you... to me, what I look at is that everyone can have a good day or a bad day...
Also, "gap" in figure skating is NOT absolute. Gap in Base Value yes. But TES (considering GOE) and PCS have often been said to be marked "relatively to the field"
In other words, Alaine is a much better (IMHO) skater than Larkyn... though Alaine had terrible skates while Larkyn did well... judges "Ranked" Larkyn ahead and deservedly so.... in other words, the gap you are talking about doesn't mean much as judges can assign marks to reflect a rank compared to the rest of the field. We often refer to that in Ice Dance for instance as everyone is shooting for the same level 4 elements.... however, with protocols we can see how some of the points are more or less just ranking points rather than absolute figures.
 

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion
Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
This, I think, doesn't take a lot into account.
Russia's #4, Konstantinova, is #5 behind if we take into account Medvedeva, but the only reason she was that high at all is TAT. Polina Tsurskaya is generally considered Russia's #4 senior, and she scored 210 at NHK. But fine, she's Russia's #5? Canada's #5, Aurora Cotop, got 141 at JWC. Sure, Alaine got 172, for her best performance this season, and Konstantinova got 19 points less -- for her worst performance of the season (says a lot about that considering she never skates clean :palmf:) Sure, Alaine did poorly where Larkyn did well, but neither of them really had a lot of competition for the third spot. It was just the two of them who really had a chance, and neither had scored anywhere near the top contenders that year. YMMV.
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
This, I think, doesn't take a lot into account.
Russia's #4, Konstantinova, is #5 behind if we take into account Medvedeva, but the only reason she was that high at all is TAT. Polina Tsurskaya is generally considered Russia's #4 senior, and she scored 210 at NHK. But fine, she's Russia's #5? Canada's #5, Aurora Cotop, got 141 at JWC. Sure, Alaine got 172, for her best performance this season, and Konstantinova got 19 points less -- for her worst performance of the season (says a lot about that considering she never skates clean :palmf:) Sure, Alaine did poorly where Larkyn did well, but neither of them really had a lot of competition for the third spot. It was just the two of them who really had a chance, and neither had scored anywhere near the top contenders that year. YMMV.

you are missing my point ;)

numbers are one thing... ranking is another thing.

the previous poster is talking about gap between skaters.... i am saying that the gap varies depending on how judges apply their score... many use the IJS to rank athletes with GOE and PCS.... so that gap is not a mathematical absolute as it does have a subjective/ranking part.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
That Konstantinova was sent to Senior Worlds after not even making the podium at JUNIOR Worlds was mind-boggling. Even an injured Tsurskaya could have finished far better than 19th.
 

dippy

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be rude. By "considering what their country is" I meant that I hope there will be more girls in Canada that can compete with those at the top. And I know all the complaining about Canada 3 spots are annoying, but at the figure skating forum people will get upset that third spot goes to someone that cannot qualify into Free Skate. No disrespect, all good vibes :pray::luv17:
 

yume

🍉
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Seriously, Canadian field as tough than Russian field?.....Osmond deserves her spot and world title, Larkyn deserves her spot, but please...:disapp::sarcasm: Why it's so hard to just agree that it's more easy to qualify with some nationalities and less competition? instead of throwing the worst performances of some skaters against the best performances of others. The worst of many Russians (and japaneses) still above the worst of most of canadians and others skaters from country with less or no competition.
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
Seriously, Canadian field as tough than Russian field?.....Osmond deserves her spot and world title, Larkyn deserves her spot, but please...:disapp::sarcasm: Why it's so hard to just agree that it's more easy to qualify with some nationalities and less competition?

there are two points here made that are being dismissed...

1) nobody is saying that it's not hard for russian girls to qualify... the point made is that Osmond herself, due to less spots available in Canada didn't manage to qualify for Worlds in 2016... and in 2017, our National Champion Chartrand, didn't make it for Helsinki.... When Gabby and Kaetlyn brought 3 spots... everyone said.. oh well... it's in the bag for Chartrand now... yet... she didn't make the Olympic team... nerves got to her ...again.. .whether there were 3 spots available or 2... she came one ranking short both times.... on paper it always looks easier in some countries than others but we are not the ones on the ice, trying to skate for our olympic berths.

2) the other point is about someone mentioning points and gap... i have never said that the top 10 Russian girls are not stronger than the top 10 Canadian girls... however, the point difference or gap is not relevant.... simply because the girls in each country compete for a rank... and though Canadian girls have a lower BV, GOE and PCS will be applied subjectively by judges with rankings in mind.... and thus, that's how a girl like Larkyn, who had her better skates of the year, managed to pass Alaine at her worst at Nationals....

I was answering a poster saying that our Canadian girls have NO PRESSURE at home... well, 1) they have less opportunities as most years, there are less spots available to them... (let's not even talk about the JGP where there are almost NO spots for our girls... which means that they do not get the same chance to develop as Russian, Japanese and Korean girls)
2) there will always be pressure if you are on the bobble.... sure, Kaetlyn and Gabby may feel safer some years... but the proof has been made that when Kaetlyn didn't skate clean, she finished out of contention for the world team... this year Kaetlyn didn't skate clean, Gabby did... Gabby took her National title back....

Pressure is relative to each environment and is not something that can be assessed properly as it involves various factors.
Ranking and gaps are not the same thing and not really relevant here.. you place ahead by 10 points or 1 point... it doesn't matter if what we are considering is the ranking.... now if we are considering scores... that's another question...


Sorry for the long post : I hope this explains my point... in the end you are still entitled to agree or disagree but at least it will be on something i have said not on what others didn't get from my argument.
 

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion
Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
I see what you're saying.
Can we discuss the JGP thing though? You're right, Canada has less spots, but who is going to fill them next year? Russia (and Japan to a certain extent) have more spots but more girls, and some really talented girls who are scoring over 190 aren't going to get one.

Also, I'm curious, do you think Austman will get the 3rd spot next year or do you think Chartrand is fired up again?
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
I see what you're saying.
Can we discuss the JGP thing though? You're right, Canada has less spots, but who is going to fill them next year? Russia (and Japan to a certain extent) have more spots but more girls, and some really talented girls who are scoring over 190 aren't going to get one.

Also, I'm curious, do you think Austman will get the 3rd spot next year or do you think Chartrand is fired up again?

Feel free to open a thread about JGP spots.... and looking for news about Alaine in the Canadian skating thread. I described our National situation to demonstrate that it's not true that it's a walk in the park for Kaetlyn compared to other girls when it comes to Nationals.... but I don't have any intention to go that far off topic.
 

yume

🍉
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
I agree that pressure is everywhere, but relative. In some nats one popped jump can cost you your spot, while in others you can pop, fall, have only 3-4 triples and still qualify.

For Chartrand, she was struggling since last season and i really doubt that pressure was the major reason of her bombing.

Since ranking is the most relevant, that means that the n.3 of country is equal of n.3 of another country?
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
I agree that pressure is everywhere, but relative. In some nats one popped jump can cost you your spot, while in others you can pop, fall, have only 3-4 triples and still qualify.

For Chartrand, she was struggling since last season and i really doubt that pressure was the major reason of her bombing.

Since ranking is the most relevant, that means that the n.3 of country is equal of n.3 of another country?

I am talking within a country...

in this case number 3 means the same for Russia and Canada as it gives a skater a qualification.

the real comparison can be made at worlds.
 

yume

🍉
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Ok thanks. So worlds is the competition which tells that skaters of X country are better than skaters from Y country right?

But i wonder, when in competition a skater A is above a skater B, that means that the skater A is simply better than skater B or just better at that competition?
 

4everchan

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Country
Martinique
Ok thanks. So worlds is the competition which tells that skaters of X country are better than skaters from Y country right?

But i wonder, when in competition a skater A is above a skater B, that means that the skater A is simply better than skater B or just better at that competition?

you know, i am not sure why you are quizzing me about all of this.... because people can see things differently.

I tend to watch each competition with a new look. I expect some will skate great and some won't... I expect some favourites to be awesome and others to have subpar skates... I expect some less known skaters may rise to the occasion.

So yes... in this case, Kaetlyn was the best skater at Worlds...
Some others will go with season's high scores... or world standings... etc

I guess as I follow other sports, I am expecting favourites to win or lose.... nobody ever dominates forever.
 

GS Forum Staff

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
This topic seems to have played out. Everyone has had his or her say, often with considerable repetition. The thread in now closed.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top