Can anyone beat a clean Zagitova?

qwertyskates · Apr 12, 2018

Joekaz said:
Wakaba has the ability if she has the properly constructed programs and enough support from fed to get parity in PCS scoring. Problem is Japanese Fed seems weak.

Believe me, I'm so WAITING for the next Mao Asada! However, that's not Wakaba because she simply lacks flexibility, finesse, great spins and stsq. She is strong, consistent, very good SS and jumps, not a bad performer, I get it, but she isn't a Kostornaia, or even possesses the aesthetics of a Satoko, this is why I see her as a good placeholder for the next great Japanese skater who will give Alina, Evgenia, Kostornaia, Trusova a good run. So far, the other juniors are too girlish and lacking a certain sophistication one gains from growth. Honda is pretty, but pretty isn't enough. There's something about Mao and Yuna - they're the whole package, but not Wakaba. Sadly, I do wish she has the flexibility and skating presence of a Tut or Anna P.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Apr 12, 2018

yume said:
Well yes she wouldn't have qualified with her italian nationals performances.

She had a perfect SP (which would have scored at least 80 internationally, as we saw at Worlds) and her FS while nothing to shake a stick at pulled 140 points. Even if you dropped her PCS/GOE to account for home inflation, she would have likely beaten Konstantinova (if you take into account home inflation of PCS/GOE at Russian Nationals - as in, if Kostner were suddenly Russian and competing at Russian Nationals, her PCS/GOE would have still be high - certainly, at the very least, she would have won the SP at Russian Nationals with her SP at Italian Nationals).

Joekaz · Apr 12, 2018

qwertyskates said:
Believe me, I'm so WAITING for the next Mao Asada! However, that's not Wakaba because she simply lacks flexibility, finesse, great spins and stsq. She is strong, consistent, very good SS and jumps, not a bad performer, I get it, but she isn't a Kostornaia, or even possesses the aesthetics of a Satoko, this is why I see her as a good placeholder for the next great Japanese skater who will give Alina, Evgenia, Kostornaia, Trusova a good run. So far, the other juniors are too girlish and lacking a certain sophistication one gains from growth. Honda is pretty, but pretty isn't enough. There's something about Mao and Yuna - they're the whole package, but not Wakaba. Sadly, I do wish she has the flexibility and skating presence of a Tut or Anna P.

She cant change her body to get flexibility so she has to have the right program to fit her style. I think you underestimate her ability. She is still young and improving.

moriel · Apr 12, 2018

millie said:
The thing about this statement is that Alina bombed at Worlds, three major falls, that no one ever thought would happen. So this scenario of anyone beating a clean Alina might never happen because after that disaster at Worlds, she might never be clean again. So it should say “Can anyone beat Zagitova “ and the answer is yes, Kaetlyn Osmond did it. No ifs, ands or buts about it. ... I know it’s a hard pill for her fans swallow, but they have to take it....

Anyone can be beaten when makes mistakes :shrug:

Its kinda obvious.

No interest in discussing the obvious.

millie · Apr 12, 2018

moriel said:
Anyone can be beaten when makes mistakes
Its kinda obvious.

No interest in discussing the obvious.

That’s what I am saying, anyone and everyone makes mistakes in every competition, that’s how skaters win, the other makes mistakes..

. We can say that about every competition that Zagitova won Olympics because Zhenya made mistakes..

CanadianSkaterGuy · Apr 12, 2018

I think a lot of it also depends on her programs. As we see with certain skaters, like Mihara, the wrong vehicles can drop your PCS. DQ was smart in using the music to accentuate the 7 jumping passes, but I'm not sure if the backloading will be effective for all types of music, or if the judges will tire of skaters doing this and reward more balanced programs. Worlds, unfortunately, was a BAD competition to end her season on because now everyone (herself included) has a whole summer to dwell on that being her last major competition. It will be interesting to see how hungry she is next season and hopefully she can bounce back.

samkrut@mail.ru · Apr 12, 2018

millie said:
But I saw the 2017-2018 World Gold Medalists. This is only the beginning for Osmond.

Really? Has it been confirmed that she stays for another 4 years?

Shayuki · Apr 12, 2018

millie said:
That’s what I am saying, anyone and everyone makes mistakes in every competition, that’s how skaters win, the other makes mistakes... We can say that about every competition that Zagitova won Olympics because Zhenya made mistakes..

What I don't really understand is why you go on and on about Zagitova losing in a competition where she had 3 falls and some URs when the title for the thread is "Can anyone beat a clean Zagitova?". I don't think anyone's said that Zagitova's not possible to defeat when she falls three times... I believe it's specifically about whether she can be beaten in the case she skates clean.

millie · Apr 12, 2018

[email protected] said:
Really? Has it been confirmed that she stays for another 4 years?

Yes, she told me...

.. I will find out more details tonight when she arrives back home in Newfoundland.

millie · Apr 12, 2018

Shayuki said:
What I don't really understand is why you go on and on about Zagitova losing in a competition where she had 3 falls and some URs when the title for the thread is "Can anyone beat a clean Zagitova?". I don't think anyone's said that Zagitova's not possible to defeat when she falls three times... I believe it's specifically about whether she can be beaten in the case she skates clean.

To answer the question can anyone beat a clean Zagitova is yes. If all the skaters skate clean and to the best of their abilites with fair judging, she can be beaten. No one is unbeatable, just ask Tiger Woods.

MedoLove · Apr 12, 2018

lmao, all this is so delirious :laugh:

All this would make sense if OP had asked this at the beginning of last season, but now things are so different ...
1-Rules are about to be changed, and have the appearance of not favoring our favorite Russians.
2-It will be a difficult season especially for Zagitova, since many things are coming together: pressure, physical changes, possible stress after the loss of podium in the worlds.Can she maintain the level and her combos? We will not know until the new season starts and she wins at least 2 GP events.
3-We don't know how the Russian Federation will react to this collapse, they were very hard on Anna P. (they took away her assignment in WTT).Who will the Rusfed favor in Rostelecom and Nationals? We don't know, we will have to see.
4- I have the HORRIBLE feeling that the cards will be played in favor of Osmond, since she did not lose a podium and she is the current "world champion", maybe +5 for her best jumps + increase of pcs.

Responding to OP:
Medvedeva beat a clean Zagitova in 2017 Nationals, and Japan Open 2017. Also Zagi's top scores at their best didn't exceed Zhenya's best total score.
If after rule changes things continue to work for Russians, Medvedeva vs. Zagi will remain a canon, but if the rules have an impact and if more than one lady skates clean in at least 2 events in a row: maybe a Japanese or a Russian who does her job well on her debut: Rika Kihira, Panekova, or if PCS undergo a drastic readjustment: Wakaba, Osmond. Or if the strong ladies who had a bad season are reborn as the fenix and eclipse everyone: Marin Honda, Polina Tsurskaya.

Since OP created a "possible miraculous event", all those possibilities that I have just enumerated are likely in case of a clean skate for the current ladies and for debuting. Sincerely I doubt we'll see the miracle of a completely clean Zagitova, at least not until the end of the season.
I insist that unless we don't see the real impact of the rules, and at least 2 GP events to evaluate the performance of the ladies, we can't crown ANYONE.

yume · Apr 12, 2018

millie said:
To answer the question can anyone beat a clean Zagitova is yes. If all the skaters skate clean and to the best of their abilites with fair judging, she can be beaten. No one is unbeatable, just ask Tiger Woods.

We can't really compare figure skating with other sports with no judging. In those sports you win because you really deserve to win, in figure skating you can bomb and still win or win a medal because you have a name or a big country behind you.
Tiger had his considerable amount of personnal problems to solve.
We can wait for another 100 years to see fair judging.

ladyjane · Apr 12, 2018

I have been reading all the posts, and unsurprisingly it turned out to be a disheartening experience for someone who hasn't an affiliation with a country like Russia, Japan or Canada, or who doesn't put all into a perspective of inflated PCS falling either to Alina or someone else (some even blamed the skaters for getting those points, not the politics and such) it's rather sad. But I was especially surprised (in a negative way) about some putting Carolina in there, and calling her successes and longevity only due to being the only contender from Italy. The skaters themselves are far more generous. Both Alina and Evghenia have expressed their admiration for Caro's skating and the possibility of still skating at the top level at 31. Can't we be too?

millie · Apr 12, 2018

yume said:
We can't really compare figure skating with other sports with no judging. In those sports you win because you really deserve to win, in figure skating you can bomb and still win or win a medal because you have a name or a big country behind you.
Tiger had his considerable amount of personnal problems to solve.
We can wait for another 100 years to see fair judging.

Sorry Yume that I didn’t explain...Just a simile ..what I meant about Tiger Wood was that he was unbeatable until he was beat.( Nothing really to do with golf, just the athlete.

moriel · Apr 12, 2018

MedoLove said:
lmao, all this is so delirious
All this would make sense if OP had asked this at the beginning of last season, but now things are so different ...
1-Rules are about to be changed, and have the appearance of not favoring our favorite Russians.
2-It will be a difficult season especially for Zagitova, since many things are coming together: pressure, physical changes, possible stress after the loss of podium in the worlds.Can she maintain the level and her combos? We will not know until the new season starts and she wins at least 2 GP events.
3-We don't know how the Russian Federation will react to this collapse, they were very hard on Anna P. (they took away her assignment in WTT).Who will the Rusfed favor in Rostelecom and Nationals? We don't know, we will have to see.
4- I have the HORRIBLE feeling that the cards will be played in favor of Osmond, since she did not lose a podium and she is the current "world champion", maybe +5 for her best jumps + increase of pcs.

Responding to OP:
Medvedeva beat a clean Zagitova in 2017 Nationals, and Japan Open 2017. Also Zagi's top scores at their best didn't exceed Zhenya's best total score.
If after rule changes things continue to work for Russians, Medvedeva vs. Zagi will remain a canon, but if the rules have an impact and if more than one lady skates clean in at least 2 events in a row: maybe a Japanese or a Russian who does her job well on her debut: Rika Kihira, Panekova, or if PCS undergo a drastic readjustment: Wakaba, Osmond. Or if the strong ladies who had a bad season are reborn as the fenix and eclipse everyone: Marin Honda, Polina Tsurskaya.

Since OP created a "possible miraculous event", all those possibilities that I have just enumerated are likely in case of a clean skate for the current ladies and for debuting. Sincerely I doubt we'll see the miracle of a completely clean Zagitova, at least not until the end of the season.
I insist that unless we don't see the real impact of the rules, and at least 2 GP events to evaluate the performance of the ladies, we can't crown ANYONE.

But then, the new rules also favor Medvedeva and Zagitova, since those two too get high GOE and have a coach who knows how to take advantage of the system. If Alina backloads less, she still will be doing a 3Lz-3Lo. Both girls will still be doing insane transitions in and out of the jumps and so on to check all those GOE points.

People say "rules will change", but then... If a skater is getting +2/+3 under current rules, the same skater will get +4/+5 under new rules, and so on. It is not like judges will change.

yume · Apr 12, 2018

ladyjane said:
But I was especially surprised (in a negative way) about some putting Carolina in there, and calling her successes and longevity only due to being the only contender from Italy. The skaters themselves are far more generous. Both Alina and Evghenia have expressed their admiration for Caro's skating and the possibility of still skating at the top level at 31. Can't we be too?

"only"? total deformation. You can't have a good career only with luck, but luck plays something into this. That's what i said. But since it's Kostner, luck has
nothing to do with her of course. Fine, She would have get all those spots easily even being in Japanese or Russian fields.

cohen-esque · Apr 12, 2018

yume said:
"only"? total deformation. You can't have a good career only with luck, but luck plays something into this. That's what i said. But since it's Kostner, luck has
nothing to do with her of course. Fine, She would have get all those spots easily even being in Japanese or Russian fields.

But the thing is would have still gotten those spots easily, though. You’re ignoring context. For most of her career Kostner was on par with the top Japanese skaters and well above the top Russian skaters and would have had little more difficult making those teams. The skaters capable of beating her would have been too young to take her spots.

The only spots I can think of that she definitely would have missed skating for other countries was the Russian team last season and the Olympics in 2010. The Russian strength is a relatively new phenomenon and she was gone for two of the last four years when it would have been an issue. In 2013 her Worlds skates would have earned Russia three spots to the Olys and she’d have gotten one, even placing below Radio at Nationals, who was too young.

****

Anyone remember the “who can bear clean Evgenia” or “will Tukt or Mao win Worlds?” threads? A lot can change in one season. A new senior may suddenly pop up out of nowhere with the same or harder jumps and get her own massive PCS boost and cruise to victory. An existing senior may do the same, actually. Meanwhile a “clean Zagitova” may not be so impressive: what if she has to downgrade her layout in the future? She can’t exactly rely on getting better PCS if that happens. And “clean Zagitova” is very rare already, so it’s not something to be taken for granted.

Spirals for Miles · Apr 13, 2018

Osmond4gold said:
Having raw talent, a strong work ethic and pure skills, can take one far.

Let's agree to agree on this

millie · Apr 13, 2018

My final answer....YES....

TheBallerina · Apr 13, 2018

Because I don't see the point in making these assumptions without facts, I chose to search the wikipedia pages for two skaters, searched for the International Results section, and make a printscreen of these two result pages. I am posting here these two photos, and please study them and then respond to my 2 questions:

1. Which skater had a better competitional year (as it is obvious, I can ask this question "which skater dominated this competitional year?)
2. Which skater is used on winning almost every competition in which she takes part, and which one is a hard worker, following an ascending trend, and also deserves our respect, but still hasn't reached the results of the other?

Pics:
https://ibb.co/geGGj7
https://ibb.co/enh6j7

Can anyone beat a clean Zagitova?

qwertyskates

CanadianSkaterGuy

Joekaz

moriel

millie

CanadianSkaterGuy

[email protected]

Medalist

Shayuki

millie

millie

MedoLove

yume

🍉

ladyjane

millie

moriel

yume

🍉

cohen-esque

Spirals for Miles

Anna Shcherbakova is my World Champion

millie

TheBallerina

#teamtutberidze

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