Can anyone beat a clean Zagitova?

As far as World Rankings are concerned, only ONE ISU Championship/Olympic outcome is included. So, for the CURRENT season:

Alina earned 2700 points: 1200 Olympic gold + 1200 (2 GP golds, GPF gold) + 300 Challenger gold (Lombardia)
Kaetlyn earned 2548 points: 1200 World gold + 1048 (1 GP gold, 1 GP bronze, GPF bronze) + 300 Challenger gold (SC Autumn Chall)

Kaetlyn had two previous seasons of Senior data, 2017 world silver + 2 GP silver + GPF 4th + 1 Challenge gold (Finlandia). Kaetlyn did not go to 2016 Worlds but was 6th at 2016 4CC; she was last at 2015 SC and 6th at 2015 NHK; she won the 2015 Nebelhorn Challenge.

Alina had only one previous season and it was a JUNIOR season where she did well, but points earned are much lower than for a senior season (JW gold=500 points vs 1200 for Worlds; JGP gold=250 points vs 400 for GP; JGPF gold=350 pts vs 800 for GPF gold)--that's why her WR is lower. At the end of next season, when the 2016-2017 data is completely scrubbed, all of Alina's data will be senior only and a direct comparison can be made.

When the rankings are scrubbed to remove old data and reduce 2016-2017 data to 70% of its value, here will be how the top 10 will look:

4174 Kaetlyn OSMOND
3860 Evgenia MEDVEDEVA
3470 Alina ZAGITOVA
3366 Wakaba HIGUCHI
3250 Maria SOTSKOVA
3212 Carolina KOSTNER retired
3089 Mai MIHARA
2863 Satoko MIYAHARA
2594 Kaori SAKAMOTO
2547 Gabrielle DALEMAN

Kaetlyn will have to continue to beat both Medvedeva and Zagitova on a regular basis to remain in first place in the standings. Since Medvedeva is not a seeded skater next season, it is possible that Kaetlyn and/or Alina may face Evgenia in GP events this fall. So far, Alina is the only skater to have beaten Evgenia in competition.

And don't be surprised to see Alina in two Challenge competitions next fall. The Russian fed likes to maximize the WR of their skaters, although they probably won't do that with Evgenia because of her injured foot.

"Tiny Boss" Trusova can.

NanaPat said:

Let both girls enjoy their success and let both sets of fans enjoy their success.

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Ok, I hope this finally settles this...yes a clean Zagitova can be beaten by Alexandra Trusova.....the new double quad queen. Do I win a prize......

millie said:

Ok, I hope this finally settles this...yes a clean Zagitova can be beaten by Alexandra Trusova.....the new double quad queen. Do I win a prize......

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Of course you do...enjoy

Click the box ———> BOX

It's worth it to open the box

Can anyone beat a clean Zagitova?

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a yes/no answer thread..

here is mine :

YES

Alina AND Evgenia beat a clean Osmond at the Olympics. Yes, Kaetlyn beat Alina at Worlds---but Alina was far, far, far from clean. And luckily for Kaetlyn, Evgenia wasn't there....

A lot has to do with pcs. Zagitova can be beaten if others are given significantly higher pcs or her's are lowered. Will it happen who knows.

One wonders what if Kostner could skate completely clean - she hasn't as of yet but even with step outs she is a pretty mature and dynamic skater and h er jumps are owthing of huge goes.

I will be curious to see how Zag does next year.

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We, the moderator team, would like to give this thread a second life. Do not try not to turn it into what it was before. It is a debate. That means if someone feels that another skater can beat a clean Alina then they are entitled to their opinion, just as those who think that a clean Alina will win are entitled to that opinion.

I think she's got a lot of talent, but she also won the OGM (and other competitions) because she used the 10% bonus to her advantage. Without that advantage, Medeva who wasn't at full capacity likely would've won instead.

So, if rules aren't changed and she isn't overly impacted by puberty, she's certainly a force to be reckoned with....... Considering the current depth of Russian ladies skating, they all will have a hard time guaranteeing a spot on their world team.

heyang said:

I think she's got a lot of talent, but she also won the OGM (and other competitions) because she used the 10% bonus to her advantage. Without that advantage, Medeva who wasn't at full capacity likely would've won instead.

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This is just not true. Comparing BVs and the GOEs and PCS they received for their content, it turns out that the only reason Zagitova won was because she could do a 3Lz-3Lo. Moreover, the only difference is in their FS: Zagitova backloads all her jumps, whereas Medvedeva backloads 5 out of 7. Both of them fully backload their SPs. That Zagitova won "only because of her backloading" is a myth.

Zagitova won only because of her technical advantage, although IMO it should have been on GOE and PCS, too. Far better programs than Medvedeva's (although "better" is relative).

Sam-Skwantch said:

Of course you do...enjoy

Click the box ———> BOX

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Its good so open it Millie.

heyang said:

I think she's got a lot of talent, but she also won the OGM (and other competitions) because she used the 10% bonus to her advantage. Without that advantage, Medeva who wasn't at full capacity likely would've won instead.

So, if rules aren't changed and she isn't overly impacted by puberty, she's certainly a force to be reckoned with....... Considering the current depth of Russian ladies skating, they all will have a hard time guaranteeing a spot on their world team.

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Why dont others backload? Because its very difficult and no one other than Alina on the senior level wants that immense challenge. She earned that bonus because she had the guts to go after it. I give Zagitova great credit for doing that and I understand why others do not.

Scott512 said:

Why dont others backload? Because its very difficult and no one other than Alina on the senior level wants that immense challenge. She earned that bonus because she had the guts to go after it. I give Zagitova great credit for doing that and I understand why others do not.

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But it is so s-l-o-w at the beginning esp., and fans are bored. This is why Kurt said to take your bathroom break, as it's very juniorish skating and with limited speed, positions not held, no visual eye contact with either the judges or the audience and simply put, it does not draw you in.

That is my opinion re the fault and the major downfall of back loading. It is the complete opposite of having a well balanced program.

Also thanks to the great coach Eteri for designing the backloading strategy for Alina which allowed Alinka to edge Eteri's prize pupil Evgenia for European gold and olympic gold. :eeking: How ironic is that?

Osmond4gold said:

But it is so s-l-o-w at the beginning esp., and fans are bored. This is why Kurt said to take your bathroom break, as it's very juniorish skating and with limited speed, positions not held, no visual eye contact with either the judges or the audience and simply put, it does not draw you in.

That is my opinion re the fault and the major downfall of back loading. It is the complete opposite of having a well balanced program.

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Im not mad at you i am fine with your take. But do you think your favorite skater could do a back loaded program as difficult as Zagitovas and win gold after gold after gold after gold? Again others don't do it because they don't want to take the risk and we saw how it is Russian Roulette for Alina at the world championships when something goes wrong it goes very wrong. Thus tremendous credit must be given to Alina Zagitova for doing what no one else will do and be rewarded for it like the isu designed.

Scott512 said:

Also thanks to the great coach Eteri for designing the backloading strategy for Alina which allowed Alinka to edge Eteri's prize pupil Evgenia for European gold and olympic gold. :eeking: How ironic is that?

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I also thank great coach Eteri because the design of that program, once there is one fall in it makes the skater so behind that Alina felt pressured and kept having issues. Irony is that it allowed Kaetlyn's great score to hold up.

Seriously, I am in no way hoping skaters will fail... but that's also the danger of that backloading strategy.... Eteri herself should rethink the strategy to give a buffer zone to her pupils. One less jumping pass in there and it could have been manageable.

Personally, I prefer more balanced programs, as I believe that one needs to be a wonderful artist of the blade to skate without jumps for 2 minutes.... and if Alina does a lot of things in those first couple minutes, she is not at that level yet, which is normal considering her age, life experience, maturity as an artist and human being.

Scott512 said:

Im not mad at you i am fine with your take. But do you think your favorite skater could do a back loaded program as difficult as Zagitovas and win gold after gold after gold after gold? Again others don't do it because they don't want to take the risk and we saw how it is Russian Roulette for Alina at the world championships when something goes wrong it goes very wrong. Thus tremendous credit must be given to Alina Zagitova for doing what no one else will do and be rewarded for it like the isu designed.

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I appreciate your opinion Scott and vice versa, do you think Alina could do an Osmond program? For one thing it is exhausting. As the US commentators said this season, she covers about 35% more ice surface than both Russian ladies do, because of speed, her height on jumps and trajectory. Alina conserves energy for 40% of her program at the beginning before exploding, whereas others have moments of high intensity and conservation.

I guess it comes down to one's taste, and for me having a balanced program is my preference.

4everchan said:

I also thank great coach Eteri because the design of that program, once there is one fall in it makes the skater so behind that Alina felt pressured and kept having issues. Irony is that it allowed Kaetlyn's great score to hold up.

Seriously, I am in no way hoping skaters will fail... but that's also the danger of that backloading strategy.... Eteri herself should rethink the strategy to give a buffer zone to her pupils. One less jumping pass in there and it could have been manageable.

Personally, I prefer more balanced programs, as I believe that one needs to be a wonderful artist of the blade to skate without jumps for 2 minutes.... and if Alina does a lot of things in those first couple minutes, she is not at that level yet, which is normal considering her age, life experience, maturity as an artist and human being.

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The World Championships are almost Irrelevant in an olympic year. This may be a 1 year only thing with backloading. It worked for Alina but it may be too much year after year. Thanks to ET for coming up with it this year though because it led to the greatest debut season ever in figure skating.