Art in Artistry

chopinskate · Apr 13, 2018

There is usually a lot of talk about how in figure skating the choreographer "paints a picture", or how you could "freeze a skater at any moment and turn it into a painting". But, at the expense of sounding pretentious, just how far are we willing to really take this analogy and give thought to what our favourite skater or one of their routines represents in terms of an artistic movement?

Here's a discussion:

Izabela said:
(At the expense of being off topic) I would still consider Les Mis as an expressionist dance because it focuses on the timbre of the characters’ emotion like the feeling of finally being free in Act I (for Valjean); the emotional longing of Eponine in Act II, and finally the reinvigorated emotional strength of the revolutionaries in the Final Act, which was superbly underline by Yuna’s transitional movement from sit position to rising up. Her used of upper body to demostrate the changing emotions of her characters is pretty reminder of expressionist (modern) art for me. Expressionism doesn’t necessarily have to be avant-garde, but in terms of dance and broadly of Modern Dance, there’s an emphasis on the connection between emotion and movement.

So yeah, although more knowledgeable folks can nitpick on this, we can say Mao and Yuna also follow Impressionism/ Expressionism. Another artistic side we can appreciate!

Izabela said:
I’m actually curious about choreographers too actually, and what art movement influenced them.

Which art movement does your favourite skater represent?

Izabela · Apr 13, 2018

To start off, I would like to redirect everyone to Tom Dickson’s interview. http://skateguard1.blogspot.com/2013/09/interview-with-tom-dickson.html?m=1

He talked about the limitation of CoP in terms of expanding artistry, but what’s interesting about the interview is that part where he listed down his 3 favorite skaters. For example, he described Janet Lynn’s skating like this

“Just the right feeling at a given moment as if she is living the moment for the time through the soul of her skating. “

And why he thinks her best works are when she skated to Impressionist pieces.

As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, impressionist is also the term I like to use regarding Mao’s skating. She doesn’t perform and express story the way Yuna does, but her movements have that quality of looking into a close up perspective, what she feels in the moment, in that specific detail. Perhaps that’s why she seems so delicate, because she doesn’t construct as much as she focuses on the “temporal.” Great example is the Madame Butterfly. It doesn’t construct astory, but it gives off the hues of what she feels at every move, in that moment.

I’m actually curious about choreographers too actually, and what art movement influenced them.

rikaquegira · Apr 13, 2018

:think:

thankyoumommyiloveu · Apr 14, 2018

Great article Izabela. More treats for me to see on YouTube!

When I remember someone like Toller Cranston and his Pagliacci program, I think of of post-impressionist art styles. He brings to mind Picasso's Blue Period work and also of Roualt's many portraits of Pierrot. Art can be many emotions...happiness, humor, joy, pain, and despair... We are enriched being exposed to the full spectrum of emotional/artistic performances.

Blue Smurfs had nothing to do though with Picasso's Blue period...

elbkup · Apr 15, 2018

Some favorite skaters (some not so much) and their choreographers in art history terms ...

JASON BROWN: TRISTAN & ISOLDE and RIVERDANCE. Ancient; roots in prehistory: Romanesque style where myths and legends were born. Jason loves to tell a story through movement and action.. these two programs are riveting pulse-pounding. PIANO & COTTON-EYED JOE: Both again are specific stories in a specific time and place set during the Victorian Era reflecting concern with Realism focusing on real people, real situations, idealism and perfectionism. HAMILTON and JUKE are other examples of Jason's love of historical subjects. Not a strictly romantic skater, the quality of Jason's skating has huge romantic appeal.

JAMES/CIPRES: are doubtless Neoexpressionists. Their programs are emotional in the most modern of terms and their aim is for perfect form, clean lines, and crystal clear interpretation. Their skates are demanding and cutting edge, grounded, crisp.

MISHA GE: Abstract Expressionism and Surrealism. With him, one NEVER knows what to expect. In my view the most artistic of all skaters today.. even his most traditional interpretations are quintessentially avantgarde.

YULIA LIPNITSKAYA: One word.. Minimalism. Less is More. Exquisite expression, line; no waste of effort, every move perfection. Probably the most pure skater alive today.

ZAGITOVA: Fauvism. Intense, wild, colorful, very emotional, experimental

KOSTERNAIA: Blends several art epochs into one.. this is what makes her totally unique!! She is Neoclassical, Romantic, Impressionistic with a dash of the Surreal. She takes a story or mood and embellishes it, layers it, expanding her subject to new depths heights with exquisite, nuanced skating, movements.

el henry · Apr 15, 2018

elbkup said:
whole post

Someone was an art historian in college, very impressive! :biggrin:

I'm going to the wayback machine and cheat

My first skating love *was* a professional artist, and this is what his agent said after his death:

"There are hints of surrealism; there are hints of realism. In some of the paintings, there's a lot of cubism. You can't really nail it down," he said.
"He would take exotic things and he would take that influence and completely mix it up in his mind and put it on the canvas. Maybe it's Tollerism — something completely different."

He did everything for art: Toller Cranston's final paintings come home

So my answer is easy: Tollerism :laugh:

chopinskate · Apr 15, 2018

That wasn't cheating, that was very far removed from the purpose of this thread

But having never watched his skating, maybe he did reinvent the wheel a bit there. Would you say his style was very far removed from what you saw then and did he influence what you see now?

el henry · Apr 15, 2018

chopinskate said:
That wasn't cheating, that was very far removed from the purpose of this thread

But having never watched his skating, maybe he did reinvent the wheel a bit there. Would you say his style was very far removed from what you say then and what you see now?

Oh well, I tried to take the easy way out :laugh:

I'm not sure I know enough about art to say. Toller was like no men's skater before him; Dick Button always called him "exotic". He invented the broken leg sit spin, the ballet sensibility, the costuming we take for granted now. Yet sometimes he would get way too out there even for me; I've never been able to sit through the entire "Strawberry Ice" (an 50 minute TV show, with acting and skating and "live" music by Chita Rivera, can you imagine today we can't even get comps on TV? And yet that's how popular Toller, who never an international gold anything, was)

In case anyone is feeling adventurous, "Strawberry Ice", with Toller Cranston, Peggy Flemming, Sarah Kawahara, Val and Sandra Bezic, and Allen Schramm

So what kind of art is that? Impressionism? Picasso, I see in the previous post, (I don't know Roualt), Miro, Matisse? I don't know what I don't know

chopinskate · Apr 16, 2018

OS said:
Artistry = Art is try

ie/ Necessary to keep try things to progress, to evolve, to move forward. These are the merits and the foundation of ANYTHING to do with art.

Agreed!

LadyB · Apr 16, 2018

el henry said:
Oh well, I tried to take the easy way out

I'm not sure I know enough about art to say. Toller was like no men's skater before him; Dick Button always called him "exotic". He invented the broken leg sit spin, the ballet sensibility, the costuming we take for granted now. Yet sometimes he would get way too out there even for me; I've never been able to sit through the entire "Strawberry Ice" (an 50 minute TV show, with acting and skating and "live" music by Chita Rivera, can you imagine today we can't even get comps on TV? And yet that's how popular Toller, who never an international gold anything, was)

In case anyone is feeling adventurous, "Strawberry Ice", with Toller Cranston, Peggy Flemming, Sarah Kawahara, Val and Sandra Bezic, and Allen Schramm

Absolutely. Thanks for providing the link. I've watched it twice years ago and I have to say, I believe that my knowledge of art is very restricted and that I'm very far from being an expert. But what Toller created was totally unique and new at the time in the realm of figure skating. In competitions, it becomes very clear when we watch his contemporaries before 1975. Absolutely miles away. I admit that Curry had very strong expressions, but it was always classic with him only, while Toller with his high kicks and his rocket speed, Russian splits and broken leg spin delivered performances completely different from anybody else's.

If Artistry = Art is try, then Toller was an artist indeed, since that is exactly what he wanted to do, as he explains in many wonderful interviews.

OS · Apr 16, 2018

Artistry = Art is try

ie/ Necessary to keep trying things to progress, to evolve, to move forward. These are the merits and the foundation of ANYTHING to do with art.

When there is 'work' out there claim to have artistry that is basically the same program on another repeat, one more copy and cheap imitation of itself year after year, yet result in massive unexplainable PCS hike from one competition to the next for essentially the same program vs those who actually progressed and worked hard for years to develop and earn them, it disqualifies the PCS judging part of the sport altogether and make it into a political tool. Add big grade F in front of art, pretty much sums it up.

Saved earlier post. Modonium sedated GS world still deserves many contradictory, independent, autonomous and even scathing views especially in the face of overwhelming absurdity.

There are reasons why 'Art and Craft' and 'Art and Design' are different categories.

There're the aesthetics (lines, carriages, and stretch) , which I'd argue falls under Craft, while the backloading structure and choice of packages/music that is designed to complement and hide skater's limited range actually falls under Design, not Art.

A great program/performance should be a harmonious balance act of the 3 under COP, and for this happen, progress, experience, development, proven/established excellence, courage to experiment, create, ability to take risks of the unfamiliar and push one's emotional and intellectual 'development', 'involvement' and 'evolvement' beyond form and function (purposeful meaning, authenticity, originality, transcendence) are absolutely the way to earn artistry. It is what makes an artist throughout history, figure skating should not be that different. That is why Kostner deserves higher PCS over others when she put out work that justify it, and other leading figure skaters of the sport have had to 'historically' justified their improving PCS slowly and steadily building over the years. Proven excellence, establishment and development.

There's nothing wrong with Pantomime or backloading, but to insist all of a sudden it is the ONLY way to justify getting some of the best artistic score ever, it is simply false advertising, selective judging, and really hurt the credibility of the sport that is is supposed to made out of 2 halves of art and sport.

Put it this way, imagine if we start to see Boyang Jin getting 30% hike in TES from beginning of the season to end of the season in his first year for the same set of quads, because apparently, he does amazing 4lz really well, better than others, like 2 points BV better. How does that justify the increase in every aspect of the COP scoring all of a sudden?

elbkup · Apr 16, 2018

el henry said:
Someone was an art historian in college, very impressive!

I'm going to the wayback machine and cheat My first skating love *was* a professional artist, and this is what his agent said after his death:

"There are hints of surrealism; there are hints of realism. In some of the paintings, there's a lot of cubism. You can't really nail it down," he said.
"He would take exotic things and he would take that influence and completely mix it up in his mind and put it on the canvas. Maybe it's Tollerism — something completely different."

He did everything for art: Toller Cranston's final paintings come home

So my answer is easy: Tollerism

AH was a minor at the undergrad level... this thread provided an interesting exercise but was not an effort on my part to equate PCS with art... both are hugely subjective, intensely personal therefore almost impossible for (judges) to pin down which is OK by me, and explains the tempest surrounding it. I detest art as social commentary but there are those who strongly disagree and I avoid what my professor used to call "Art Speak", language so dense and off putting it borders on exclusion. I totally agree Art is To Try.... to develop, move forward (Misha Ge). Toller Cranston paints because he is creative and that creativity needs to expand, express itself. Those of us who are not creative (me included) can still recognize and appreciate true creativity, even if we don't particularly like the (very subjective) result. The old saying is, Those who Can, Do, Those who Can't, Teach...

Ladskater · Apr 16, 2018

I guess when I think about art and figure skating, I think about the amazing Toller Crantston. He really was an artist in that he painted as well as skated. Every move Toller made on the Ice could be transformed into one of his paintings. My favorite Toller program was his "Too Beautiful to Last" . He captures the feeling of the music and his every move looks like Baryshnikov on ice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KhKRjZ6x6o

el henry · Apr 16, 2018

So much Toller love in this thread!

:love:

:agree:

Izabela · Apr 16, 2018

OS said:
There are reasons why 'Art and Craft' and 'Art and Design' are different categories.

There're the aesthetics (lines, carriages, and stretch) , which I'd argue falls under Craft, while the backloading structure and choice of packages/music that is designed to complement and hide skater's limited range actually falls under Design, not Art.

A great program/performance should be a harmonious balance act of the 3 under COP, and for this happen, progress, experience, development, proven/established excellence, courage to experiment, create, ability to take risks of the unfamiliar and push one's emotional and intellectual 'development', 'involvement' and 'evolvement' beyond form and function (purposeful meaning, authenticity, originality, transcendence) are absolutely the way to earn artistry. It is what makes an artist throughout history, figure skating should not be that different. That is why Kostner deserves higher PCS over others when she put out work that justify it, and other leading figure skaters of the sport have had to 'historically' justified their improving PCS slowly and steadily building over the years. Proven excellence, establishment and development.

There's nothing wrong with Pantomime or backloading, but to insist all of a sudden it is the ONLY way to justify getting some of the best artistic score ever, it is simply false advertising, selective judging, and really hurt the credibility of the sport that is is supposed to made out of 2 halves of art and sport.

Put it this way, imagine if we start to see Boyang Jin getting 30% hike in TES from beginning of the season to end of the season in his first year for the same set of quads, because apparently, he does amazing 3lz really well, better than others, like 2 points BV better. How does that justify the increase in every aspect of the COP scoring all of a sudden?

I honestly don’t have a specific skater in mind when I posted that reply and going to the backloading discourse is not the intention of the OP (and I admit I’m also at fault for derailing this further :laugh:

). I agree with what you said though, but what I have in mind is more on a broader stroke, on how we should look at “art” in figure skating. OTOH, backloading for me is not so much as “hiding” the limitations of a skater as much as dropping the artistic intension to make way for technical goal. For me, those are two different distinctions because “hiding” seems to be an implication that a skater has no ability to develop (which I disagree) whereas “dropping” is more deliberate, because the priority to grow artistically is compromised to grow technically. And more than skaters, I blame the CoP here because while it tries to break down programs in an attempt to score them more objectively, it has forgotten (or the judges no longer prioritize) the totality of a program.

But again to go back to my first question, in an art like dance where we have seen different movements from ballet to modern to surreal, is it still viable for figure skating to be equated with “ballet on ice”?

Mathman · Apr 16, 2018

el henry said:
So much Toller love in this thread!

:agree:

If only he hadn't insisted on doing that broken-leg sit spin, he would have been perfect.

OS · Apr 16, 2018

Izabela said:
I honestly don’t have a specific skater in mind when I posted that reply and going to the backloading discourse is not the intention of the OP (and I admit I’m also at fault for derailing this further ). I agree with what you said though, but what I have in mind is more on a broader stroke, on how we should look at “art” in figure skating. OTOH, backloading for me is not so much as “hiding” the limitations of a skater as much as dropping the artistic intension to make way for technical goal. For me, those are two different distinctions because “hiding” seems to be an implication that a skater has no ability to develop (which I disagree) whereas “dropping” is more deliberate, because the priority to grow artistically is compromised to grow technically. And more than skaters, I blame the CoP here because while it tries to break down programs in an attempt to score them more objectively, it has forgotten (or the judges no longer prioritize) the totality of a program.

But again to go back to my first question, in an art like dance where we have seen different movements from ballet to modern to surreal, is it still viable for figure skating to be equated with “ballet on ice”?

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with backloading, but it should theoretically affect artistic mark if it became formulated, without substance and one trick pony.

If Alina is truly awesome and wants to move forward, since apparently she already receives such massive PCS advantage anyway 75PCS vs the low to high 60s by the entire Team Japan. She can try to go for front load 100% next time in her program. (Since it in theory, is just as balanced as 100% backload) Now imagine she still needs to have the stamina to do proper choreography, spins and footwork the rest of the program to justify pcs. Now that I'd like to see :laugh:

Ballet is only one form of art. Art form should not be weighed against each other but onto itself. Is it the best ballet among all the ballets, instead of a ballet deserve to be better regarded than say a Tango or Hip-pop. Same with music, but unfortunately there are likely those out there who genuinely believe ballet by default deserve the highest score vs all other dance movements without seeing what the skater is actually doing, and that only established master classic works like Swan Lake deserve highest marks by convenient argument of 'subjectivity' like when measuring up to unfamiliar Chinese wailing songs. If figure skating need to be appear as an artistic sport, it should be all inclusive and open minded to all sort of interpretation and form, not just ballet. Though ballet foundation is incredibly helpful with form and presentation, one should never be a slave to it.

chopinskate · Apr 16, 2018

Izabela said:
But again to go back to my first question, in an art like dance where we have seen different movements from ballet to modern to surreal, is it still viable for figure skating to be equated with “ballet on ice”?

No. Figure skating isn't and has never been balletic. It takes elements from ballet, but it has always had space for interpretation with those elements, IMO.

For that matter... I can't really name a balletic skater. I can see elements of ballet exemplified in Sasha Cohen and Mao Asada, but I wouldn't call them "ballet dancers on ice".

OS said:
Ballet is only one form of art. Art form should not be weighed against each other but onto itself. Is it the best ballet among all the ballets, instead of a ballet deserve to be better regarded than say a Tango or Hip-pop. Same with music, but unfortunately there are likely those out there who genuinely believe ballet by default deserve the highest score vs all other dance movements without seeing what the skater is actually doing, and that only established master classic works like Swan Lake deserve highest marks by convenient argument of 'subjectivity' like when measuring up to unfamiliar Chinese wailing songs. If figure skating need to be appear as an artistic sport, it should be all inclusive and open minded to all sort of interpretation and form, not just ballet. Though ballet foundation is incredibly helpful with form and presentation, one should never be a slave to it.

Yes. And it's extremely sad that people can't get away from biases and instead cling on to the age old notion of the aesthetic, wanting the rest of the world to change instead. I'm fine with preferences, but not with passing off subjectivity as objectivity. It's time dance and FS changed the way its audience views presentation. There are several here who like new, fresh routines, though, so that's good, and that seems to be a general trend.

Izabela · Apr 16, 2018

Aside from the obvious answers, which skaters would you think have given fresh routines and somehow deconstructed (if this is ever the right term here) the "traditional" understanding of how figure skating (as dance on ice) should be? And by obvious answers, top of my mind I can only think of Yuzuru and Daisuke. (I have a limited range when it comes to knowledge in skaters).

Baron Vladimir · Apr 16, 2018

I really think that word art is so overrated here. I for example dont see more art in FS than i can see it sometimes in a soccer game. Cause i can describe Messi, Ronaldo or Neymar's ways of playing with the same epithets i would describe skaters skating tho :cool14: But what i like in FS and what i can see as an art concept there is variety (and freedom?) in choices and styles :agree:

Art in Artistry

chopinskate

Izabela

rikaquegira

thankyoumommyiloveu

elbkup

Power without conscience is a savage weapon

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

chopinskate

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

chopinskate

LadyB

OS

Sedated by Modonium

elbkup

Power without conscience is a savage weapon

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

Izabela

Mathman

OS

Sedated by Modonium

chopinskate

Izabela

Baron Vladimir

Similar threads

Connect with us